X-Dream vs Ergos

So I have a pair of Petzl Quarks with pick weights and when needed CT hammers.
I've seen the limitations when cranking the grades over 4+.
My ex has the all-Mountain and they swing like a hot knife in butter. I don't want the Nomics or the equivalent (IMO better) all-Mountain.
Having the same head has its advantages but also that I've had issues with shifting pick on my Quarks.
Any pros & cons?
Petzls are also $60 more a tool.

You really ought to test drive the Ergos before you decide. They have such an extreme grip angle that you might find them difficult to swing into ice in the usual fashion. If you are looking at overhanging drytooling, however, it sounds like they are a top tool. But pure vertical ice? I'm not so sure.

I've never used the xdreams but I do have the ergo's... Like Ben B. said, definitely takes some getting used to. A very strange swing indeed. But like any new tool, it takes about a year to get used to.

X-Dreams are supposed to be the new Nomics. I know a few climbers in the Canmore area that have switched. Have you seen this yet?

thealpinestart.com/2014/03/…

Interesting read! I was already swaying towards the X-Dream...

Ergo's
Ice = Bad (weird swing)
Over hang rock = Bad (Nomics way Better)
Roofs = what they are good for

Got rid of mine for drytooling, I now use a pair of Nomic for Ice and an old Nomic's for rock.

You're welcomed to tryout my X Dreams if you make it down to Keene in December. I should be there for the first couple weeks of the season. The Dreams are hands down the best tool on the market. The Ergos work well on steep ice and drytooling but the Petzl picks suck. It's detune the picks for >4 ice and another stock set of picks for rock.

Have you detuned the picks on your Quarks?

Bill, I spent a few hours and trials tweaking the pics to match the all-mountains and then some.
I can still pull outward safely and still manage to clean them in our beautiful north east ice.
I'll keep it in mind next season in Keene.

Are we talking x dreams or all mountains? These are entirely different animals.

I bought a pair of x dreams to see what the buzz was all about and felt their shortcomings outweighed their usefulness as my "go to" set of tools.

Before you go screamin heresy Bill Kirby let me explain.

If you have large volume hands like I do your gloved hand will feel cramped between the pinkie rest and upper handle.

IMO this will cause fatigue and poor blood circulation to the fingers resulting in cold hands.

Also wtf is with that huge bump on the pistol grip? (Where the hole In the handle is) This felt really awkward to my grip when swinging the tools in the air. It felt like a blister was eminent on the palms of my hand where this bump was rubbing.

The hole in the handle is worthless. I could not get any D or oval biner to pass cleanly so forget about using these tools for an auxiliary anchor point or as psychological pro while fighting a pump and placing screws.

One could tie some cordage here but again it would interfere with your grip.

My $0.02 ymmv

I`m glad you did not like the Dreams Tom, now I get to see what all their hype is all about ;)

One more thing.... the new Grivel tech machines are out, I have a paire on their way right now, im quite confidant that they will be a contender in the mix realm ! Ill post here when i try them out next week1

I wonder how the 'tech machines' differ from the racing wing. Im more interested in the 'machine 3.0'

Tom, Sorry this is a bad picture. I took it with an old GoPro. I still think you can clearly see two draws attached to the tool. The carabiners are Photons (Camp biners go figure right?) and Petzl Anges. These are my winter draws but I could go get some others kinds if have one in mind.

Did you remove the spacer at the bottom of the grip? Doing so plus removing the trigger will give you more space for your big hands. I like the big trigger with no bottom spacer when I use the X Dreams.

You said you swung the Dreams in the air.. Did you swing them on ice? I think any shortcoming is forgot about when you easily clean all those great first solid sticks.

No screaming heresy any more. You either like Cassin tools or you don't. I tell people if you like a natural swing go with All Mountains. If rocking Nomics then X Dreams are for you. Heck, I really like the heavier weight of the BD Fusions for drytooling. The thing that really gets me screaming are the F-ing idiots who say the X Dreams suck who have never climbed with them. MFers talking I'm been ice climbing for 65 years and I know the X Dreams aren't good. Take your punk ass off into history with that sh*t.

X-Dreams, no question. Have a few seasons on them and they're just stellar.

By curiosity, how many of you X-dream users using petzl pic weights on the x-dreams?

I do. It's something you should try out and see if you like it the swing or not. Most people I've talked to who don't use weights have never tried them on the Dreams.

I just got a set and have been using Nomic's for 8 years, so i will prob like them! Can't wait to see if all the hype on these tools is real!

To sum up my feelings: my nomics are up for trade for a set of X-dreams if there are any takers...

I got a pair of brand new Cassin X-Dream for sale if anyone is interested.

Bill Kirby wrote: You're welcomed to tryout my X Dreams if you make it down to Keene in December. I should be there for the first couple weeks of the season. The Dreams are hands down the best tool on the market. The Ergos work well on steep ice and drytooling but the Petzl picks suck. It's detune the picks for >4 ice and another stock set of picks for rock. Have you detuned the picks on your Quarks?

Older Cascade picks don't need work. Ice picks need work but are pretty easy to clean up. My biggest problem with the Ice picks are the aggressive teeth that cause the picks to get stuck. Quarks don't need the picks tuned as much because of the different angles. I think the problems with the picks are overblown, we could talk about BD picks and then you'd have a point.

X-Dreams are nice, Cassin/CAMP has really stepped it up.

Ray Pinpillage wrote: Older Cascade picks don't need work. Ice picks need work but are pretty easy to clean up. My biggest problem with the Ice picks are the aggressive teeth that cause the picks to get stuck. Quarks don't need the picks tuned as much because of the different angles. I think the problems with the picks are overblown, we could talk about BD picks and then you'd have a point. X-Dreams are nice, Cassin/CAMP has really stepped it up.

the cascade picks are impossible to find now a days... I have a new set of them and I don't even want to use them.... the "modified" ice picks do the job but....

Ray Pinpillage wrote: Older Cascade picks don't need work. Ice picks need work but are pretty easy to clean up. My biggest problem with the Ice picks are the aggressive teeth that cause the picks to get stuck. Quarks don't need the picks tuned as much because of the different angles. I think the problems with the picks are overblown, we could talk about BD picks and then you'd have a point. X-Dreams are nice, Cassin/CAMP has really stepped it up.

It's nice to have a civil conservation about this. I haven't used Cascade picks. I have spent time filing down three sets of Ice picks for my old Nomics. The process takes way longer than filing the beak off the Cassin picks. The first time was fun as I was with new friends. The rest of the time sucked! I was taught to file the teeth as well the tip on the Petzl picks. Maybe try that? The problem still is file too much away and it gets dangerous.

I've tried the Quarks. I used for more than a day and don't like them at all. I don't know if it's the angle or the picks or the grip. I think the new Quarks aren't an improvement over the old ones either. I saw George Mallory rocking the old Quarks so I'm sure they're not horrible. I guess I just need all I can get in the gear department to get myself up a 4+. Haha..

I like BD tools. I know you think I'm dense but I like the Cobras and a laser pick. I love the Fusions for drytooling. The Cobras are great for alpine ice even though I use my Dreams for everything.

In the end it's all about trying every tool out there and making a decision based on what feels good to you. I wouldn't fault anyone using any tool if they can get the job done efficently. It's frustrating to watch someone hack a route up trying to get a good placements then once the tools in they can't get it out. You ask if they have tried anything else than what tools they got and they answer no.