Adding/moving bolts at Stone Mountain NC

Yeah, and 1-2 more inches of rain predicted for Sunday. Water will be running for days.

Hey Nathan, funny for you to chime in after chopping and moving our ground up bolts on "Mirage". Why don't you chop the ring anchors at the top of your project in Dillard Canyon, the purist might catch on to your scam!

What a load of complete crap!

Tradition? -bullshit
Respect? -bullshit
Preservation? -bullshit
Heritage? -bullshit
Ethic? -bullshit!

The reason, the ONLY reason, people climb scary routes is because it gives them a buzz and makes them feel like a bad ass. And the ONLY reason people want to 'preserve' scary routes is ego; if the route can be climbed without it being scary, no one will appreciate how bad ass people who climbed it the scary way are. Period. End of story. Any other 'explanations' are lies and bullshit.

If you want to be a bad ass fine, but please spare the world the ridiculous bullshit idiotic non-logic.

It sounds like Va Genius understands it perfectly, the only one that ends up at the bottom of a dog pile is the one whose carried the ball the longest!

Recon Buck wrote: The reason, the ONLY reason, people climb scary routes is because it gives them a buzz and makes them feel like a bad ass. And the ONLY reason people want to 'preserve' scary routes is ego; if the route can be climbed without it being scary, no one will appreciate how bad ass people who climbed it the scary way are.

this thread is almost as good as the old CT/NY ethics/why is ken nichols such a dick thread from years back mountainproject.com/v/bolti…

the main exception is NC rock is higher quality by far and there is not just one psycho dictating/brainwashing the "ethics" that every climber should abide to.

In the years since starting that thread I've come to the same conclusion as Buck, ego plays a huge roll. I just skip bolts when I want to soothe my ego (for people to see).

and yeah, its raining here during record winter warmth, at least the snow is melting quick!

MJMobes wrote:the main exception is NC rock is higher quality by far and there is not just one psycho dictating/brainwashing the "ethics" that every climber should abide to

That's right, there's tons of us psychos and were usually drunk and hopped up on pills or smoking the fresh batch of meth that we just made in a two liter bottle in our trunk.

However Ken is indeed a dick because he just went to fucking town chopping anything and everything acting like it was some sort of divine right that was inscribed on tablets he found or some shit. Ken is different from NC because we don't go around and chop sport routes for the fuck of it.

Side note, ken is somewhat a fucking hero in the sense that he's such a dick, everyone likes the vilan in the movies sometimes right? He's got a whole website dedicated to keeping him away from crags. He's banned from a few crags by police as well. People who have climbed with him say he's a pretty cool dude, he's just got some crazy 'ethics'.

Recon Buck wrote:What a load of complete crap! Tradition? -bullshit Respect? -bullshit Preservation? -bullshit Heritage? -bullshit Ethic? -bullshit! The reason, the ONLY reason, people climb scary routes is because it gives them a buzz and makes them feel like a bad ass. And the ONLY reason people want to 'preserve' scary routes is ego; if the route can be climbed without it being scary, no one will appreciate how bad ass people who climbed it the scary way are. Period. End of story. Any other 'explanations' are lies and bullshit. If you want to be a bad ass fine, but please spare the world the ridiculous bullshit idiotic non-logic.

Boom! The only thing you forgot is limiting access. The more "traditional" you can keep an area and the more you can control how people climb, the more you can limit the number of folks that climb.

None of this is about "ethics." It is about ego, access and control.

BTW, the "hopped up on pills" comment made me laugh my ass off!

Luke Douglas wrote:Think of climbing as a challenge to the human spirit in which one can choose to rise to the occasion or not. The original intent of this challenge was to meet the mountain on its own terms, not to beat it into submission. Climbers attempt to live up to this ideal by climbing in the best style possible, which among other things means altering the rock as little as possible. A benefit of this would be to learn about yourself, to grow as a person, and develop many other positive attributes such as self-reliance and decision making. Safety was not an overriding concern of meeting this original challenge. Safety has a very enjoyable place in modern sport climbing allowing us to push our physical limits without facing dire consequences. Preserving traditional climbing allows us a place to push our mental limits, as well as, show our respect to those that have come before us. If we can agree that it is not acceptable to alter the rock so that you can make it up an established 5.14 providing the physical challenge would it not likewise be unacceptable to alter the r/x route providing the mental challenge? Having to skip a bolt not originally on a line creates a contrived mental challenge. Instead of committing and fluidly moving upward you must now consider that point of protection. This disrupts the mental flow. It also diminishes the aesthetics of the line and the experience. Most important may be the commitment required. Knowing that once you start up a line with minimal to no protection you are committed to action provides an opportunity for personal growth including personal responsibility. There is also great mental and emotional reward not often found in our modern world. Allowing room for both these physical and mental challenges gives us, as a climbing community, a chance for the most diverse experience possible. Our climbing experience is not lessened because we may never climb that 5.14 at our local crag, nor is it lessened if we never climb that r/x route at the same crag. Having those routes to aspire to just provides inspiration to the strong of will.

i'm gonna just quote this post again

Reasons for not adding bolts are elitist and stupid. I can climb and have lead 11s but still will not touch most of the 9s at stone because it just isn't worth getting hurt (rock breaks and all it takes is the single nub you are standing on to give way and you are grounding). I can go elsewhere and plug trad gear to protect much harder routes and have little risk of death / months of not being able to climb.

I do think alot of you need to sell your factory made trad racks and climbing shoes and go back to sending this shit in your hiking boots like it was done originally.

There is no reason not to bolt unprotectable sections at least every 20ft.

I do hope to one day be able to climb the rest of the stuff here but if not no big lose.

VaGenius wrote: This really is a great bit of thinking. Bears frequent repeating.

Nah, just more bullshit. Eloquently written bullshit, but bullshit just the same.

The fallacy of these types of arguments is that they are presented from the perspective of the "human spirit rising to the occasion to meet the mountain on it's own terms" which is quickly followed by you therefore need to meet the mountains on someone else's pre-defined terms. Then, to pile the bullshit even higher it is concluded that no one can "meet the mountain on its own terms" unless everyone climbs exactly the same way following the same very specific pre-determined rules.

Again, this completely illogical bullshit is all about ego. Difficult/dangerous climbing is not an end in itself, the goal is to gain the admiration of others.

VaGenius wrote: I fully intend to make sure those retros on AdPunks disappear.

just make sure you do it on lead bro OK?

I want a count on how many times Killis has told the world about all the bolt work he does. anyone?

"Eloquently written bullshit" I like it

Since it is still pouring rain, via ferrata anyone . . . (taken from Wikipedia, of course)

A via ferrata (Italian for "iron road", plural vie ferrate or in English via ferratas ) is a protected climbing route found in the Alps and certain other locations. The essence of a modern via ferrata is a steel cable which runs along the route and is periodically (every 3 to 10 metres (9.8 to 33 ft)) fixed to the rock. Using a via ferrata kit, climbers can secure themselves to the cable, limiting any fall. The cable can also be used as aid to climbing, and additional climbing aids, such as iron rungs (stemples), pegs, carved steps and even ladders and bridges are often provided. Thus via ferrata allow otherwise dangerous routes to be undertaken without the risks associated with unprotected scrambling and climbing or need for climbing equipment (e.g. ropes). They enable the relatively inexperienced a means of enjoying the dramatic positions and accessing difficult peaks normally the preserve of the serious mountaineer; although, as there is a need for some equipment, a good head for heights and basic technique, via ferrata can be seen as a distinct step up from ordinary mountain walking. Conversely, the modest equipment requirements, ability to do them solo, and potential to cover a lot of ground, mean that via ferrata can also appeal to more experienced climbers.

MJMobes wrote: just make sure you do it on lead bro OK? I want a count on how many times Killis has told the world about all the bolt work he does. anyone? "Eloquently written bullshit" I like it

Killis my be a loudmouth (at least on this forum) and I may not agree with him on this issue. However, I would happily shake his hand and buy him a beer for the work he does with the ASCA. So what if he talks about it? He is out there doing something good for the community and I respect that he is putting his money where his mouth is. Lots of folks talk shit. He is actually making a contribution. Cheers and respect to him for that!

Plus, he likes Eva. Anyone who likes Eva cannot be all bad!

Recon Buck wrote:Difficult/dangerous climbing is not an end in itself, the goal is to gain the admiration of others.

Absolute horse shit. I feel a great deal of satisfaction from overcoming the fear and pushing through a runout/ dangerous climb, even if nobody else knows about it. Just because you can't understand that doesn't make it untrue for other people. Sometimes I like to push difficulty, sometimes I like to push my head game. Stone is a great place to do the latter. And the "just don't clip the bolt" argument is horse shit too. Just knowing you have an out takes the commitment level down a notch. If you're not up for the climb, don't climb it.

csproul wrote: Absolute horse shit. I feel a grab deal of satisfaction from overcoming the fear and pushing through a runout/ dangerous climb, even if nobody else knows about it. Just because you can't understand that doesn't make it untrue for other people. Sometimes I like to push difficulty, sometimes I like to push my head game. Stone is a great place to do the latter. And the "just don't clip the bolt" argument is horse shit too. Just knowing you have an out takes the commitment level down a notch. If you're not up for the climb, don't climb it.

Sounds like a psychological problem to me, You are wanting someone to force you to risk death to climb a route. And here in lies the problem because you know you will clip it is there because you know you need to clip it or risk dying but yet you still don't want it there and want everyone to risk dying from a 100 foot fall into a ledge.

I know a few people who have died climbing from being careless on easy routes... i just don't see why anyone would want to force people to be careless on a route. Even at only a 20 ft runout a 40 ft fall rolling down slab will get most people on edge.

Maybe we should force people to jump off at each bolt / protection spot and take falls to make sure it doesn't put you in the hospital, if you aren't willing to do it than maybe you need another bolt somewhere. Heck if you still want to scare people the middle bolts can always be put at the worst possible clipping location.

Have you ever climbed at Stone?

I have not climbed a ton of the stuff but i have climbed the ones that looked protected great arch, scimitar, few others, top roped a few that i could swing ropes to on rappel. I would love to lead most of the thing but 2 trips there and i don't see much else worth climbing with such run-outs.

I grew up here and really have not be climbing that long but after taking a few trips climbing out west and seeing how safe the climbs are it does annoy me that people in NC like to do stupid things like have first bolts after 5.10+ moves at 30ft with no possible trad placements.

I am terrified of heights which many people laugh at me about, i will not set a top rope in most areas but i still love to climb, i don't give a shit what the grade is, I think 300ft + long 5.5 routes are just as much fun as bouldering V7s all day.

I get the point of not bolting a ladder up the side of the mountain (but you can't place pro on much of stone), heck i could care less if they made 1-2 ferrata up the side of it as long as it was out of the way of normal climbing.

ViperScale wrote:I have not climbed a ton of the stuff but i have climbed the ones that looked protected great arch, scimitar, few others, top roped a few that i could swing ropes to on rappel. I would love to lead most of the thing but 2 trips there and i don't see much else worth climbing with such run-outs. I grew up here and really have not be climbing that long but after taking a few trips climbing out west and seeing how safe the climbs are it does annoy me that people in NC like to do stupid things like have first bolts after 5.10+ moves at 30ft with no possible trad placements. I am terrified of heights which many people laugh at me about, i will not set a top rope in most areas but i still love to climb, i don't give a shit what the grade is, I think 300ft + long 5.5 routes are just as much fun as bouldering V7s all day. I get the point of not bolting a ladder up the side of the mountain (but you can't place pro on much of stone), heck i could care less if they made 1-2 ferrata up the side of it as long as it was out of the way of normal climbing.

There are plenty of relatively safe routes at Stone. Yes there are run outs, but most of the time the crux's are protected. And often a fall on the low angle rock would not likely result in serious injury...the fear is largely in your head. Is is not difficult to lead a grade below your normal onsight limit and minimize the risk of falling. Yes, some of the routes are truly risky, but either sack up, top-rope them, or go climb something else. NObody is forcing anyone to get on a route that is over their head. I doubt you have exhausted the reasonable possibilities at Stone.

And as for climbing being safe "out west"...are you joking?! There are plenty of scary slab climbs out here too. Anything put up in the era of hand drilling on a stance. I can maybe see adding a bold to something like Strawberry Preserves, where the FA was (supposedly) protected by a tree branch that is now gone, but leave the rest of the established climbs alone. Go climb at Pilot or make a trip to the New if you want to stick to "safe" climbing. Most of the routes at Stone would be boring if they were well bolted.

csproul wrote: Absolute horse shit. I feel a great deal of satisfaction from overcoming the fear and pushing through a runout/ dangerous climb, even if nobody else knows about it. Just because you can't understand that doesn't make it untrue for other people. Sometimes I like to push difficulty, sometimes I like to push my head game. Stone is a great place to do the latter. And the "just don't clip the bolt" argument is horse shit too. Just knowing you have an out takes the commitment level down a notch. If you're not up for the climb, don't climb it.

No I understand, I understand very well. I have climbed at Stone Mountain, and I have climbed R rated routes, and yes there is a great deal of satisfaction in keeping your shit together on scary stuff. But if you think it isn't about ego you are lying to yourself. And not wanting others to climb in a 'poorer style' than how you climb is absolutely 100% about your ego.

You claim you are the victim if a bolt is added to an unprotected section because it gives you an option and thus you are being denied your proper spiritual/terror experience. This is bullshit, and I will prove it to you; instead of a bolt imagine there is just a bolt hole. Now someone who does not want to experience the runout can plug in a removable bolt, but if you want to climb it with the runout you can simply not carry a removable bolt. Your climbing experience would be exactly the same. Would that be an acceptable situation to you?

You don't need to answer, I can tell you right now that you won't like it. Because it isn't really about your climbing experience, it is about your ego, and your ego won't be nearly as satisfied if gumbies can skate through the runout because they are protecting it with a removable bolt.

ViperScale wrote:... after taking a few trips climbing out west and seeing how safe the climbs are ...

Total beginner climber here that as only climbed around where he lives. I have to say that I can see Pacific Ocean from here and there are many runout climbs here. Also lots of highballs, I've yet to climb any but I'm sure the day will come...

This is an example of a local runout climb sent ground up where the gentleman took a huge fall broke his hand last year. Trained like a beast and went back and sent it. youtube.com/watch?v=B5mlA3Y…