First ice tools, advice needed

I really want to go to the Ouray Ice Festival next year. I'm alright with holding out on buying until I try some different tools, especially because I don't think I'll be able to get back out again before the season ends. But since it will be time to climb there probably won't be as many deals.

Um... great deal: cascadeclimbers.com/forum/u…

Ben Brotelho wrote: I think the Quarks work well for steep ice and mixed BS, you just have to adapt to avoid a little knuckle bashing, but they're amazing all around tools!

Nope have disagree.. I've never seen a guy who climbs on Nomics, All Mtns, Cobras etc. borrow a pair of Quarks for a lap and say "Wow I need a pair of Quarks!" I have lent out my Nomics many times to Quarks owners only for them to say "Wow I need a a pair of Nomics" when they finish getting lowered.

I believe Quarks have their place. Quarks are great for moderate ice but only if you have another set of tools for hard stuff. I think if you're going to have one set of ice tools for everything Nomics or the Cassins are the best choice. I have a friend who switched from Quarks to Reactors! That says it all.

Kirby1013 wrote: Nope have disagree.. I've never seen a guy who climbs on Nomics, All Mtns, Cobras etc. borrow a pair of Quarks for a lap and say "Wow I need a pair of Quarks!" I have lent out my Nomics many times to Quarks owners only for them to say "Wow I need a a pair of Nomics" when they finish getting lowered. I believe Quarks have their place. Quarks are great for moderate ice but only if you have another set of tools for hard stuff. I think if you're going to have one set of ice tools for everything Nomics or the Cassins are the best choice. I have a friend who switched from Quarks to Reactors! That says it all.

Here's the thing, nomics (love mine) and other purpose built tools may not be the best first tool. A newbie isn't going to be hitting tons of super steep ice, they will be on more moderate stuff (at least they should be) learning skills that are more mountaineering oriented than pure ice climbing. For this type of stuff most of the purpose built tools lack significantly. I'd MUCH rather have my cobras for alpine type routes that may have snow climbing, low angle etc. between the steep stuff. Also, if an approach requires snow travel, a Cobra or Quark type of tool could be more useful. Or an ice axe may need to be carried. Just a thought.

Rory, I was in your shoes not to long ago. If I were you I would hold off on buying tools this season and rent/borrow for the rest of the year. Then I would head to an Ice Fest with some friends and have everyone demo different stuff. Try it all and see what works best for YOU. Then, it's not to hard to find tools if you're diligent, and definitely buy used.

JustSolo.. I see where you're coming from but respectably disagree. Most new climbers TR everything. It's pretty common for people to be TRing fours after a few days on ice. Newbies will top rope mostly unless they've got a friend who leads. In that case they'll be following 3s minimum. The. Nomics or All mtns are great for everything except 2s and even then not that bad. You just choke up on the handle. That said I think Nomics or the Cassins are a better choice. You can progress with those tools where as the Quarks are for moderate ice. I know climbers who use Quarks for WI5 and mixed but it always seems like they've never tried another tool. I just feel that if you get the Quarks sooner or later you're going to be looking at another set of tools to complement them like the Ergos, Nomics or X Dreams.

Again no disrespect just throwing out a different opinion.

Kirby1013 wrote:That said I think Nomics or the Cassins are a better choice. You can progress with those tools where as the Quarks are for moderate ice.

Thanks Kirby
That is what I was wondering. I would like to buy the tools that will get me the farthest before I feel like I need to buy a complimentary set.

I've been reading up on the Cassins, I need to head up to the climbing shop again to see if they have em in store. Too bad its 5 hours away... I doubt any of the closer ones carry much more than a general mountaineering axe.

Rory, You might find them online. I've been looking for the X dreams which are made by Cassin but no luck. Remember I'm just throwing out my opinion. I doubt you'll go wrong with those All Mtns but try and run some laps with every tool you can get your hands on. That way you know what works for you and what doesn't.

I was fortunate enough to hire the same guide the first fifteen times I went ice climbing. Josh had every tool or knew who to talk to to get them. So I've used almost every tool on the market between Josh and ice festivals.

Oh.. Yes I used Nomics the first day and now every day I go out climbing.

Good luck Rory I hope you enjoy ice climbing!

I have Cassin X-All. They are not that great on alpine (mellow) ice.

Kirby1013 wrote:JustSolo.. I see where you're coming from but respectably disagree. Most new climbers TR everything. It's pretty common for people to be TRing fours after a few days on ice. Newbies will top rope mostly unless they've got a friend who leads. In that case they'll be following 3s minimum. The. Nomics or All mtns are great for everything except 2s and even then not that bad. You just choke up on the handle. That said I think Nomics or the Cassins are a better choice. You can progress with those tools where as the Quarks are for moderate ice. I know climbers who use Quarks for WI5 and mixed but it always seems like they've never tried another tool. I just feel that if you get the Quarks sooner or later you're going to be looking at another set of tools to complement them like the Ergos, Nomics or X Dreams. Again no disrespect just throwing out a different opinion.

No disrespect taken, and you are correct. My only point is, if the basic mountaineering skills are not learned and honed well first, clambering up anything on TR is close to pointless. Sure, someone can climb a 2 with a nomic, but can they use a nomic for all the "piolet" oriented movements that teach the key to ice climbing, footwork. I would argue, not so much. When was the last time you plunged a nomic? The new nomic has a sort of spike at the end, but not much. Like I said, I love my nomics, but if a climb has any sort of snow approach or otherwise, then either a third tool must be taken, or in this case, use tools that can work well on both. Just different perspectives.

The reality of modern tools is they allow newbies to "climb" up anything with crappy form, and IMO not really learning anything. Can't tell you how often I've seen climbers with little to no crampon skills running around easy access TR routes. This IMO is due to not spending the time learning the basics, which is NOT a good place for the tools mentioned.

Sorry guys.. forgot the CU on a extended weekend to the Daks

Divnamite.. I'm surprised to hear that. It seems everyone I talk to likes them a lot of moderate ice and the X Dreams for steep stuff. I guess that's why I always say demo gear when you can.

Just Solo.. I enjoy discussing this with you and it not turning into a pissing contest! Unusual for MP. Haha. Your post makes me laugh because you are so right. I stopped by some popular TR spots this year and had flashbacks after reading your post. I think in that good instruction helps more than correct tool choice. I started with Nomics and enjoyed them from the start. But.. I had a guide for the first thirty days I started ice climbing. I feel that the average person can progress past grade 2 within days of getting into ice climbing. Proper instruction will accomplish this way more than a tool with a straighter shaft. I can only assume that Rory will go about learning the right techniques from basic movement to placing screws in strenuous positions. If so Rory will enjoy the Nomics or All mountains more so than Quarks. If not the Reactors are another ice tool to take a look at.

Theres tons of snow in the Adirondacks right now! I cleared three dump truck loads of snow off of Chouirnards Right two days ago. Lots of caning there and believe me that spike came in handy! The spike on the Cassin is even better.

Kirby1013 wrote:Rory, You might find them online. I've been looking for the X dreams which are made by Cassin but no luck. Remember I'm just throwing out my opinion. I doubt you'll go wrong with those All Mtns but try and run some laps with every tool you can get your hands on. That way you know what works for you and what doesn't. I was fortunate enough to hire the same guide the first fifteen times I went ice climbing. Josh had every tool or knew who to talk to to get them. So I've used almost every tool on the market between Josh and ice festivals. Oh.. Yes I used Nomics the first day and now every day I go out climbing. Good luck Rory I hope you enjoy ice climbing!

IME has the X-dreams in north conway NH

Kirby1013 wrote:That said I think Nomics or the Cassins are a better choice. You can progress with those tools where as the Quarks are for moderate ice. I know climbers who use Quarks for WI5 and mixed but it always seems like they've never tried another tool. I just feel that if you get the Quarks sooner or later you're going to be looking at another set of tools to complement them like the Ergos, Nomics or X Dreams. Again no disrespect just throwing out a different opinion.

Having started in the era when straight shafts were pretty standard and is funny hear the Quarks described as a tool only for moderate ice. I have climbed with Nomics and some other leash less tools, but if I had to choose just 1 tool to own for steep ice and alpine it would be the Quarks.

Maybe this is the old guy in me, but folks need to learn some crampon and classic ice axe technique when they are starting out. It is scary to watch folks bumble around on low angle ice. They can bash their way up some near vertical stuff, but have no idea what to do with all those extra points on their crampons.

In closing "Get off my lawn ya damn leash less hooligans!"

Superkick.. I was in North Conway last month. I got to swing them for a couple laps at Ice Fest but couldn't make up my mind on whether or not to pull the trigger. Now I'm either in Baltimore or the Daks. I will be back up the Mt Washington Valley in April but will be climbing the gullies in Huntington. No need for X Dreams up there Haha.. maybe next year!!

George Marsden wrote: Having started in the era when straight shafts were pretty standard and is funny hear the Quarks described as a tool only for moderate ice. I have climbed with Nomics and some other leash less tools, but if I had to choose just 1 tool to own for steep ice and alpine it would be the Quarks. Maybe this is the old guy in me, but folks need to learn some crampon and classic ice axe technique when they are starting out. It is scary to watch folks bumble around on low angle ice. They can bash their way up some near vertical stuff, but have no idea what to do with all those extra points on their crampons. In closing "Get off my lawn ya damn leash less hooligans!"

Ha ha George, I must be in your camp. My first tools were the red handled X-15s, then I moved up to the first generation carbon fiber cobra. Still have them. There are my goto tool for the alpine. But I have have converted and am a leash-less fan. I even converted a viper hook for my cobras and usually use those leash-less. My nomics are sublime, almost makes it too easy sometimes!

I have a lot of respect for you two climbing with straight shaft axes. I take the first couple TR laps of the season with Hummingbirds. I can't imagine having to always pull down on my tools and the second I pull outwards the placement is gone. Between the screws and tools I'm amazed how far R&D departments have come.

That said, get with the times. Leashless is where it's at. Radically bent tools are fun to climb with. They'll not choice for alpine but you can use any tool on grade 2 if you have good technique and get out more than a few days a year.

I've argued for a straight shafted axe more than once in the time I have climbed.

And more recently I have offered the opinion for a beginning technical climber to just buy an Ergo and be done with it.

I have some favorites when it comes to tools and what I use where but in the last few years I've settled on the Nomic for anything I would ever need a technical tool on.

A couple of weeks ago I took a beginner out to climb some ice. It quickly became obvious to me that real ice was out of the question for the time and skills involved. And I've taught a lot of ice climbing. What we really needed was more basic. We ended up top roping some steep snow..perfect neve in fact.

My friend's first instruction on steep snow was using a pair of Nomics. Helped that I have climbed a lot of steep snow and moderate ice with a Nomic...as well as straight shafted tools and everything in between.

When we were done for the day I had to rethink all that. The first lesson was a "mistake" I was thinking wrong tool (Nomic) for the job and teaching. Now on reflection I would intentionally start a beginner on steep snow and ice with a Nomic. No problems and I suspect they would be better for it in the end if they really wanted to proficient at climbing technical snow and ice at any level.

Kinda reminded me of the difference in climbing with a 10 point crampon to learn French technique before you could learn to front point on the other 2 points. Basically? Why wait? Just buy a Nomic and be done with it. Then learn how to use the tool to best effect.

Dane wrote:I've argued for a straight shafted axe more than once in the time I have climbed. And more recently I have offered the opinion for a beginning technical climber to just buy an Ergo and be done with it. I have some favorites when it comes to tools and what I use where but in the last few years I've settled on the Nomic for anything I would ever need a technical tool on. A couple of weeks ago I took a beginner out to climb some ice. It quickly became obvious to me that real ice was out of the question for the time and skills involved. And I've taught a lot of ice climbing. What we really needed was more basic. We ended up top roping some steep snow..perfect neve in fact. My friend's first instruction on steep snow was using a pair of Nomics. Helped that I have climbed a lot of steep snow and moderate ice with a Nomic...as well as straight shafted tools and everything in between. When we were done for the day I had to rethink all that. The first lesson was a "mistake" I was thinking wrong tool (Nomic) for the job and teaching. Now on reflection I would intentionally start a beginner on steep snow and ice with a Nomic. No problems and I suspect they would be better for it in the end if they really wanted to proficient at climbing technical snow and ice at any level. Kinda reminded me of the difference in climbing with a 10 point crampon to learn French technique before you could learn to front point on the other 2 points. Basically? Why wait? Just buy a Nomic and be done with it. Then learn how to use the tool to best effect.

Hey Dane, does the new lower pomel on the Nomic retro-fit to the old ones? That would be a nice addition in the alpine...

I agree with Dane honestly.

I have a BD Viper that is a very nice tool and a Petzl Nomic tool as well. Have to say - my votes goes to the Nomic honestly.

I just like the Petzl better - tho I wish the Nomic's came with a hammer head factory stock like my Viper did!

There are many ncie tools out there these days - I have a friend that does a lot of good climbing (ice and alpine) on his Cassin's and does very well with them. I'm just more impressed these days with Petzl products....except their ropes whcih I hear are hit or miss. I am more of a Mammut and Sterling rope fan...

Michael Urban wrote:I agree with Dane honestly. I have a BD Viper that is a very nice tool and a Petzl Nomic tool as well. Have to say - my votes goes to the Nomic honestly. I just like the Petzl better - tho I wish the Nomic's came with a hammer head factory stock like my Viper did! There are many ncie tools out there these days - I have a friend that does a lot of good climbing (ice and alpine) on his Cassin's and does very well with them. I'm just more impressed these days with Petzl products....except their ropes whcih I hear are hit or miss. I am more of a Mammut and Sterling rope fan...

Petzl makes a hammer for Nomics. Besides, about 99% of the Nomic buyers don't need a hammer.

I think a good tool combo is a pair of Nomics and a Pair of Sum'Tecs. Cobras, Vipers, Quarks, etc blow for plunging. If you're doing steep snow with a little ice (like most of the lower Cascades) where you'd want good plunging and a little swinging, the Sum'Tec is more than enough.