Climbing and Martial Arts

Mike Belu wrote:Move from NJ to LA. Go to a high school and befriend a hot cheerleader named Ali. Make sure she has a dick boyfriend named Johnny. Soon Johnny and his friends will jump you; you might have to take a little bit of a beating at this point. No worries, a highly skilled martial arts master janitor will bail you out. Hang with the janitor guy, fix up his crib and become a martial arts master. Its just that easy.

Brilliant! They should make a movie with this story. :)

M Sprague wrote:Probably the most important is to find a good instructor. Some can really mess you up.

This ^^

There are LOADS of different disciplines that you can practice, but you aren't learning from a specific discipline, you are learning from your instructor.

I studied with a very serious and determined man in North Carolina for a large part of my adult life and while I definitely learned a lot about the art itself, I learned a lot more from my instructor as a person. Not only was he passionate about martial arts, but he was passionate about people, and teaching about self control, confidence, attention to detail and mental discipline.

Keep in mind though that if you do find the right person, he will not allow you to study with him if you are just doing it to "gain fitness" or "supplement your climbing." Of course he will appreciate that you have a life outside of training with him, but any respectable martial artist will demand a lot from you and it would be disrespectful to train if you were not ready to give what he may ask.

I have studied a few different martial arts, but Wado-Ryu was my favorite. It is sort of a hybrid between Okinawan Karate and Shino Yoshin Ryu (Jujutsu). There is a focus on striking, but the main idea is to get out of the way, while at the same time putting yourself in a position of power. This is done by using the attackers momentum - sort of "going with the flow of things."

This suited me because I am long and lanky, and not very powerful. I am good at keeping myself safe, but I will rarely be able to do much damage to someone if they are expecting me to attack. So a style that focuses on evasion was the best choice for me. It also seems to make the most sense in the real world, where the typical opponent is over aggressive and out of control and often stopped by a surprise strike to the body, a throw or a lock.

As always, I have a wealth of information for my question. Thank you all for responding and not letting this spiral out of control into a flame fest.

Ok, I'm really bored, so I'll put my 2 cents down.

Yes, a good instructor is probably the most important thing.

Before going any further, my background in martial arts is primarily Karate (I have a black belt, which when I received it meant I was considered a serious student of the art, nothing more). I've also dabbled with Aikido and boxing. But I'll speculate on forms like Brazilian jiu-jitsu, Krav Maga.

All forms of martial arts have advantages and disadvantages. They all have applications to self-defense, though some have very steep initial learning curve, while others are inherently ill-suited for facing multiple opponents.

For self-defense, forms like Krav Maga, Brazilian jiu-jitsu have the least-steep learning curve, but only against inexperienced opponents: the most effective forms initially are typically also the easiest to learn to neutralize against. Aikido probably sits on the other end of the spectrum: it'll be extremely foolish to use anything from Aikido until one is quite proficient. Strike-based forms, on the other hand, have a more linear curve: the better you can throw a punch or kick, the more useful it becomes, but you are not going to learn, in an afternoon, how to break a hand/arm/leg with joint manipulation against an unsuspecting opponent.

For strength building, wrestling and grappling based forms are probably the best. For power and flexibility, a strike based form is probably the best. And if you are really in a bind, you better hope you have firearms.

There are a lot of good comments. I agree 100% with Ryan and reboot. Like them, I studied Japanese karate. I spent 15 years of my life practicing at least 4x a week (sometimes more), and trained in a dojo in Japan for 3 years.

The one thing I would reiterate is that the various styles differ quite a bit from school to school. Some styles have a reputation for having demanding classes and teaching effective techniques, but not all schools within any given style are the same. Within all styles you will find some quality schools and some that suck donkey balls. You need to sit in on a few classes and talk with the instructor. Go with your gut, but also be wary of any school that does not have you making contact with training devices and other students. If you can't strike a bag, perform a technique on an uncooperative adversary or take a punch, the stuff you are learning is probably not going to be worth much outside the school. Training for martial arts is not always pleasant; like crack climbing, to get good you have to endure a little pain.

Best of luck and have fun!

a lot of bjj is practiced as a sport, not martial activity or a series of lessons on self-defense or ass-beating. in some schools, this means that people are focused on training, getting better and staying healthy and (in my experience) fewer injuries due to newbies trying to be tough. as others have said, it's important to find an activity and school that matches your interests. also, some martial arts gyms/clubs are pretty expensive. good luck.

Slightly old thread that I just came across.

I will also cast my vote for BJJ. In 2003 I had to quit climbing due to tendonitis. I took up BJJ while I waited for my injuries to heal. I got so into it, I forgot all about climbing for many years.

I practiced BJJ for about 7 years, achieving the rank of high purple belt (which is like being a 5.12+ onsight climber). I was an instructor for about 4 of those years.

It's a great pastime, which has a lot in common with climbing. Both require great balance, conditioning and spatial awareness. There's also a lot of characters involved in both, and both even have some moves with the same names (knee bar, heel hook, arm bar).

I'm back into climbing again, but am considering starting BJJ again also. The problem is that both of them are so physically demanding, only the very young could handle it. It would also be tough to be any better than mediocre at either one if doing both. You really need to be dedicated to one or the other.

I'll put in another vote for BJJ. You'll never get into better shape than grappling shape. Also, the BJJ/mma/grappling community is great, dare I say better than the climbing community. Most people I met during 8 years of training/competing were incredibly positive, hard working, and encouraging. If you're traveling and a school is in the area, stop in and people will be happy to work out with you.

Also, someone implied that grappling doesn't do much for your flexibility. That's simply wrong. Flexibility is a huge asset on the ground, and a lot of work goes into increasing flexibility, not only to help you avoid injury, but it also opens up opportunities.

Finally, fights almost always end on the ground. If you're interested in self-defense at all you need to understand how to grapple. With you being in CO people are wearing heavy clothing most of the year, with nice solid collars, lapels, and sleeves, which are all excellent tools for choking if you know how to use them. Chokes are great because no matter how drunk, psycho, hopped up on pain pills, whatever someone is, getting a choke locked in will end it. And despite what the movies will have you believe, it only takes a few seconds to put someone completely under with a proper choke, and they won't make a sound during those few seconds.

Carl Sherven wrote:Finally, fights almost always end on the ground.

Well yes, hopefully it's the other guy already knocked/passed out or otherwise disabled. I know BJJ has been preaching this line for years, but really, it should be avoided unless you know the surrounding really well (do you really want to be on the ground when the drunk guy's buddy shows up?) But then again, why wouldn't you be able to avoid a fight in a familiar surrounding?

Carl Sherven wrote:If you're interested in self-defense at all you need to understand how to grapple.

Since grappling also include escape, I'll give you that. But if you are interested in self-defense, you also need to learn defending against strikes. I know in the earlier days of MMA, BJJ guys exposed many martial artists of their unfamiliarity of the ground game, but it's also easy to see it isn't the end-all form: as competitors became better at defending against take-downs/submissions, MMA fights are increasingly ending in knock-outs or submissions resulting from good strikes.

reboot wrote: see reboot's comment above

If you really want to know what I think, the best martial arts related thing for people to study is MMA. It gives you strikes, clinch, takedowns, ground technique, and submissions. It also teaches you how to use the environment to your advantage if there is an actual cage where you train.

However, from what the OP said, I doubt this is someone that will say "Great idea, I'm gonna go train mma at XYZ Fight Academy." Many people I knew started off doing Judo, or BJJ, or kickboxing at a school that had MMA and slowly got into it. Now, if someone goes in just for the bjj classes or judo classes for a year or two, and get to know some of the people, realizes that they're really positive and encouraging, then it becomes an easier sell for the people they're training with to convince them to take that step.

As far as "what happens when drunk guy's buddy shows up?" Yeah, avoiding bad situations is a good idea, and I'm certainly not saying "bjj is great cuz you can get in bar fights and choke people the fuck out." The fact is that if you get attacked by several people it's just not good. All I can say about that is that being aware of your surroundings and not getting into situations like that, and not appearing to be an easy target, is the first and best line of defense.

Cool Story Bro time: I remember teaching a class where we were working on sinking in rear naked chokes from the back. One of the fairly new students asked me why we didn't spend much time practicing escapes for those when we spend so much time on other escapes. My answer was something like "So, you're opponent turned you, then took your back, then managed to sink both hooks in, then broke down your quarter position and got you flat on your stomach face down, then got a rear naked choke sunk in, and now you've got a few seconds until you tap or pass out? Your training time would have been better spent avoiding the mistakes that enabled all those other bad things in the first place." Point being, don't let yourself get in bad situations in the first place so you won't have to figure a way out.

Anyway, Shane, try a couple things out and just make sure you feel good about the instructors and people you're training with.

Shane Zentner wrote:Having become slightly bored with climbing (I'm scared to even admit this)

I'm pretty much in the same boat. I have a hard time giving a shit about climbing after so many years.

I recently connected with my GF's good friend that practices Judo at the Denver Buddhist Temple. They get together Mon & Thurs 6:30 - 8pm. It's only $30/month to join. I used to wrestle 13-18 yo, but haven't practiced in years. This Thurs will be my first time in 16 years. I hope I don't get my ass kicked too hard.

It might be something worth looking into depending on where in CO you are.

Website:
dbtjudo.com/DBTJ/Welcome.html

I'm sure a lot of climbers can relate to this quote:

Judo teaches us to look for the best possible course of action, whatever the individual circumstances, and helps us to understand that worry is a waste of energy.

-Jigoro Kano,
Founder of Judo

reboot wrote: Well yes, hopefully it's the other guy already knocked/passed out or otherwise disabled. I know BJJ has been preaching this line for years, but really, it should be avoided unless you know the surrounding really well (do you really want to be on the ground when the drunk guy's buddy shows up?) But then again, why wouldn't you be able to avoid a fight in a familiar surrounding? Since grappling also include escape, I'll give you that. But if you are interested in self-defense, you also need to learn defending against strikes. I know in the earlier days of MMA, BJJ guys exposed many martial artists of their unfamiliarity of the ground game, but it's also easy to see it isn't the end-all form: as competitors became better at defending against take-downs/submissions, MMA fights are increasingly ending in knock-outs or submissions resulting from good strikes.

When I started BJJ it was at a brand new school. The only other people there were the instructor and a couple of his friends who had both been training for many years. The first 6 months I was the low man on the totem pole and spent 90% of my time getting my ass kicked BAD. I could only mount an offense if they let me. I would go home aching from head to toe having been (for lack of a better term) utterly RAPED for hours on end.

Eventually, new students joined and it was absolutely shocking how easy it was to completely dominate almost all of them, with only the very biggest and strongest, or guys who had wrestled for years in school able to put up some decent resistance. Anyone who was even close to my size, who were completely new to grappling would totally be my bitch. I could do pretty much anything I wanted to them.

The point being, grappling and ground fighting is not a natural skill and many things are completely foreign and counter-intuitive. Unlike stand up fighting, where even a completely untrained person has some understanding of how to throw a punch, and where being much bigger and stronger is a much more distinct advantage.

It really is a fascinating hobby.

Carl:

Where did you study / train?

Adam - BJJ wrote:Carl: Where did you study / train?

Short Answer: Mostly Monkey Bar and Henderson Self Defense Center

Long Answer: sent you a private message. Had it here, but realized it was more info than I like to put online about myself.

Cheers.

And the winner is Muay Thai. I started training at the end of February and love it. Mentally and physically strenuous with lots of drills, bag work, conditioning, and sparring. No belts, forms, or katas, just alot of hard work.

Jiu Jitsu.

Lots of climbing friends have taken this and say it's invaluable to their climbing.

M Sprague wrote:Probably the most important is to find a good instructor.

I'll second this. There are a lot of great forms of martial arts and they will all build strength, focus, awareness, concentration. MOST important is a good teacher and dojo that you feel good at.

Here's my rundown on training I've had with the pros and cons for each:

Military Styles: Pros - Great training if you are worried about actually having an altercation. Great for focus. Cons - Very focused on violently ending the interaction quickly, not much spiritual growth.

BJJ: Pros - Awesome for awareness and concentration and great for learning to defend yourself without having to hurt the other person. Cons - Learning with noobs practicing submissions on your joints can result in nasty injuries.

Kenpo: Pros - A great stand up striking form of martial arts that is great for strength and concentration. Cons - Any striking art can result in hand damage so make sure your form is good.

Capoeira: Pros - Tons of fun and an awesome workout. Great cultural teachings as well. Cons - Less applicable if you are truly wanting to develop self defense.

Tai Chi: Pros - Great for focus and concentration. I've heard the push hands training is amazing as well. Cons - Very slow paced from the teachers I've had. You would need to be disciplined and comfortable with a "yoga like" martial arts experience.

Yoga: I know this isn't a martial art but it is an awesome form of cross training that you might want to consider. Pros - Builds everything you are looking for and is amazing for injury prevention and recovery (try to find certified Anusara instructors). Cons - Yoga is slow, no self defense training, has too many teachers available and can result in injury if you are competitive and are learning from a teacher who pushes you into specific shapes instead of ideal alignment.

All that being said I am currently not doing any of these activities and am 100% focused on my climbing again. If I were to return to this stuff I would be open to doing any of them other than military type trainings and BJJ.

Shane, have you considered Shotokan Karate? It would seem to fulfill most of your objectives. The International Shotokan Karate Federation (ISKF) has a strong presence in Colorado. Mark Tarrant is a Shichidan within the ISKF and could be highly informative.

I would toss in another vote for Aikido. Unlike other martial arts, there is little risk of injury..ie. painful arm bars, tweaked shoulders, damaged knuckles etc. Instead, it offers a Ton of Mind-Body coordination. The benefit of which allows a sense of body-awareness..making your need for arm strentgth less necessary. Be able to balance over your "one-point", and less fatigued after a long day.

Ps: Richard..Jeff Jones, who is sitting next to me at the moment says HI..How ya doing?