Fall in the BRC last week?

New required sign at gyms.

Matt N wrote: New required sign at gyms.

I think we need the light up signs reminding us to check our belays at the bases of all routes. How else can we be sure we're climbing safely?

bearbreeder wrote: simply to make it a requirement

We need more rules, can't ever get enough rules, so that climbing is finally safe.

Always open to new ideas, no matter how they may be presented, I did a quick search for accidents or equipment failures attributed to my archaic, quaint, and antiquated old-fart laughable Stitch belay plate. Many of the results reported quite favorably on the device, and I could find no reports of accidents or failures in which it was the primary offender, although some sources objectively reported some minor cons with its (and many other devices') use under different conditions.

Like I've said, it's worked well on trad routes, top ropes, and in the gym for me for a long time. Looked at objectively, the ATC is basically just a "better mousetrap" version of the same thing, with the added benefit of being a rappel device.

From thebmc.co.uk/ regarding Stitch belay plates

Intermediate, Slick, Grabbing and Locking devices:

Slick: Such devices rely principally on friction to provide braking. Devices of this type allow smooth, quick rope feed and are less likely to jam when rope is being paid out. They require more care on the part of the belayer in applying and maintaining a controlling force when arresting a fall or during a lower.
Example: ATC

Intermediate: Devices neither particularly slick nor grabbing. Good general purpose devices.
Example: Sprung Stitch.

Grabbing: A device giving a sharp braking effect when suddenly loaded. Likely to be pinching devices. Care needs to be taken to ensure smooth rope feed, otherwise may jam. Have a tendency to lock up easily. Effective at holding falls which may not be anticipated by the belayer and or where a high controlling force is required.
Example: Flat Stitch.

Sticht plates work fine as belay devices, but are not as good as tube devices for rapelling. I suspect that is why most plate users eventually switched.

There have been incidents with sticht plates. If the belayer doesn't attach the keeper loop when top belaying, because the plate is a low friction devices it can slide down the rope and make it impossible to lock it down. Of course that was clearly user error, but the point is that there are forseeable failure modes. I've never seen that happen with a tube device. Maybe at the time that sticht plates were common, which was when climbers were transitioning from hip belays to sticht plates, there were more mistakes?

Also, if a grigri is threaded backwards, it has enough friction to function as a belay device so long as you use good technique (at least on thicker ropes).

I used to have a Sticht plate with the spring but had to improvise the keeper cord. It was a PITA and I sold it long ago. So essentially, get rid of anything with "stich" in the name because it's just a pain in the ass. I mean, it might have some good qualities, but...

Mark E Dixon wrote: We need more rules, can't ever get enough rules, so that climbing is finally safe.

this rule is simply being open and honest about the accidents that occur ...

its not a particularly hard one as i assume the staff would write up a log of a serious incident ...

making it available for people to read ... whats so bad about that ;)

Stich wrote:So essentially, get rid of anything with "stich" in the name because it's just a pain in the ass. I mean, it might have some good qualities, but...

I'd also suggest avoiding any equipment with "stokes" in the name, unless you're the first responder

bearbreeder wrote: this rule is simply being open and honest about the accidents that occur ... its not a particularly hard one as i assume the staff would write up a log of a serious incident ... making it available for people to read ... whats so bad about that ;)

In the first place, there's no reason to think this will help. I seriously doubt similar signs in factories lead to fewer work site accidents.

In the second place, while I can tolerate insurance company mandated rules (even if they don't always make sense,) requiring gyms to further protect us from ourselves while we pursue a dangerous useless sport seems not really in the spirit of climbing as I understand it.

Don't get me wrong, I share the voyeuristic thrill of reading about other people's accidents and would certainly read any posted reports. But they do leave the punched out footprints in the mats, which should count for something.

Mark E Dixon wrote:But they do leave the punched out footprints in the mats, which should count for something.

Yeah those footprints are pretty wild, huh?

Movement is actually a very safety-conscious gym. There are signs about proper belay technique throughout the gym, and they are really strict on belay tests, to the point of pissing off many 'old timers'... "I've been belayin' with my stitch plate for 72 years, you can't tell me nothin' you young whipper snapper!"

;-)

I still argue that more frequent accidents at Movement and BRC compared to other gyms is simply due to volume. Have you seen it? It's really not something that can be appreciated from a written description. Any doubters should go to Movement tonight at 7pm. It will blow your mind. Not a single parking spot, route, treadmill, weight machine, or boulder problem free for hours on end. It's madness. I simply can't go at night anymore.

Mark E Dixon wrote: In the first place, there's no reason to think this will help. I seriously doubt similar signs in factories lead to fewer work site accidents. In the second place, while I can tolerate insurance company mandated rules (even if they don't always make sense,) requiring gyms to further protect us from ourselves while we pursue a dangerous useless sport seems not really in the spirit of climbing as I understand it. Don't get me wrong, I share the voyeuristic thrill of reading about other people's accidents and would certainly read any posted reports. But they do leave the punched out footprints in the mats, which should count for something.

ANAM doesnt help either then ;)

its simply basic reporting of what incidents happened ... which they should be writing up anyways for insurance purposes ...

public transparency is a GOOD thing ...

or would one rather be in the dark and not know the rates or specifics of accidents?

i suspect if they are forced to disclose it, theyll be quite vigilant ...

bearbreeder wrote: ANAM doesnt help either then ;) .

What makes you think it does?
"Fall climbing rock, protection failed; slip on snow, failed to self-arrest" - always the same accidents, just different years.

bearbreeder wrote: its simply basic reporting of what incidents happened ... which they should be writing up anyways for insurance purposes ... public transparency is a GOOD thing ... or would one rather be in the dark and not know the rates or specifics of accidents? i suspect if they are forced to disclose it, theyll be quite vigilant ...

So you'd prefer gyms where autobelays are banned and the staff hovers around double checking everyone's belay technique and tie-in knot? Probably shouldn't allow leading either. And helmets for all.

Mark E Dixon wrote: What makes you think it does? "Fall climbing rock, protection failed; slip on snow, failed to self-arrest" - always the same accidents, just different years. So you'd prefer gyms where autobelays are banned and the staff hovers around double checking everyone's belay technique and tie-in knot? Probably shouldn't allow leading either. And helmets for all.

id simply prefer a gym where they publish and dont hide the incidents ... which they need to record anyways for insurance ... and those get posted up for everyone to SEE and MAKE THEIR OWN JUDGEMENT ... and hopefully LEARN from

the staff should always be on the look out for bad belayers ... i mean you do have little kids running around the gym ... dont want those to get splattered by someone going hands free now do we ;)

I just heard about this today at the gym. This is very sad news. I have climbed with this person at the gym many times and he is the most friendly and experienced climber at the BRC. He is there nearly every day. He is a very safety concious and serious person and amazingly athletic for his age. I wish him the best and a full recovery.

Its too easy to post in haste and make presumptions. I think in this case some compassion is in order. I was not there when this happenned but I think we all should understand that when things become so routine it is easy to become complacant. Many professional climbers have fallen victim to this kind of momentary absentmindedness. Take this as a lesson to make us all safer that no matter how often you climb to complete the pre-flight checklist each time.

In this particular case, I hope I will see this person will be back at the gym.

bearbreeder wrote: id simply prefer a gym where they publish and dont hide the incidents ... which they need to record anyways for insurance ... and those get posted up for everyone to SEE and MAKE THEIR OWN JUDGEMENT ... and hopefully LEARN from the staff should always be on the look out for bad belayers ... i mean you do have little kids running around the gym ... dont want those to get splattered by someone going hands free now do we ;)

Then you're free to go to such a gym. If you don't like the policies of BRC or Movement or anywhere else, I'm sure they'd prefer you didn't go. From my experience (current at Movement, in the past at BRC), I've never seen anything the gyms do that is dangerous, unless you count failing to directly supervise everyone who happens to be using the facilities as dangerous (which you may). The gyms provide good facilities that are safe when properly used and dangerous when not.

I know lots of us gym climbers are concerned about the high rate of accidents, which seem to happen among both super-experienced climbers, noobs who somehow managed to pass the belay test, and everyone in between. I'm skeptical that government regulation is going to solve this problem or be in the long term of interests of gyms or their users, in light of the fact that the gyms aren't really doing anything wrong.

The best safety idea I've heard is going through a methodical check list each time you begin a new climb (or rappel, when moving beyond gyms). I know that sounds glaringly obvious and may be, but some guy managed to write an entire book on checklists that became a bestseller.
amazon.com/Checklist-Manife…;ie=UTF8&qid=1356044659&sr=1-1&keywords=checklist+manifesto
But on the other hand, when the errors are often the result of people forgetting to do seemingly obvious things, why wouldn't they forget to go through the checklist? It may be an intractable problem.

pfwein wrote: Then you're free to go to such a gym. If you don't like the policies of BRC or Movement or anywhere else, I'm sure they'd prefer you didn't go. From my experience (current at Movement, in the past at BRC), I've never seen anything the gyms do that is dangerous, unless you count failing to directly supervise everyone who happens to be using the facilities as dangerous (which you may). The gyms provide good facilities that are safe when properly used and dangerous when not. I know lots of us gym climbers are concerned about the high rate of accidents, which seem to happen among both super-experienced climbers, noobs who somehow managed to pass the belay test, and everyone in between. I'm skeptical that government regulation is going to solve this problem or be in the long term of interests of gyms or their users, in light of the fact that the gyms aren't really doing anything wrong. The best safety idea I've heard is going through a methodical check list each time you begin a new climb (or rappel, when moving beyond gyms). I know that sounds glaringly obvious and may be, but some guy managed to write an entire book on checklists that became a bestseller. amazon.com/Checklist-Manife…;ie=UTF8&qid=1356044659&sr=1-1&keywords=checklist+manifesto But on the other hand, when the errors are often the result of people forgetting to do seemingly obvious things, why wouldn't they forget to go through the checklist? It may be an intractable problem.

yet gyms and the industry in general sell themselves as "safe" places where you can bring your kids entire bday party, leave your kids after school, etc ...

from their website ...

- Safe, friendly, controlled environment
- Great activity for kids and teens


i would expect a gym where "At the Boulder Rock Club, safety is our number one concern. " that there would be indeed people patrolling the floor, and incident reports to be posted up as warnings ...

they may already do so ... who knows ... but the 12-15 grounders from the top of the wall a year that someone claims doesnt sound like the best .... someone is going to get killed, and it may well be a bystander ...

I have read a lot of good responses here and I certainly don't want to stir the pot, as I often do, but I really don't see how some of these things happen. Now before anyone tells me that I am missing something about human error and that I am more dangerous for not understanding how it could happen to anyone - I do know that we humans make mistakes. We make them every day.There are thousands of chances for us to fuck up every day and none of us get all of those times right. We make mistakes.

But how many of those opportunities for mistake can cost us our life? Not many. Maybe for most of you, the most dangerous thing you do is drive. You are careful, and you stay alive. The most dangerous thing I do is ride my bike in traffic. I am careful, and I stay alive. In both cases we are also relying on others to be careful as well.

But how many times can a person possibly tie into a climbing rope in one day? Twenty? Thirty? Of all of the thousand times that you can fuck up in a day, the tying your knot part is the most important. It's up to you to get it right, and if you do, there is a very very good chance that you are going to stay alive. Why do so many people get it wrong?

I've climbed at a couple of German gyms, and they're a whole differant animal. One had a concrete slab floor, and the other had a concrete slab floor with a 5' wide strip of 1.5" pad along the base of the routes. Tough luck if you blow the 2nd or 3rd clip on an overhanging route.

We asked if we needed to do a belay test and they looked at us suspiciously: "You know how to climb, don't you?" When we nodded, they said "Well, go climb!". A first date next to us dropped her partner 20' onto the slab due to belay error, and my German friend said "Hmmm, maybe belay tests would be a good idea."

doak wrote:I've climbed at a couple of German gyms, and they're a whole differant animal. One had a concrete slab floor, and the other had a concrete slab floor with a 5' wide strip of 1.5" pad along the base of the routes. Tough luck if you blow the 2nd or 3rd clip on an overhanging route. We asked if we needed to do a belay test and they looked at us suspiciously: "You know how to climb, don't you?" When we nodded, they said "Well, go climb!". A first date next to us dropped her partner 20' onto the slab due to belay error, and my German friend said "Hmmm, maybe belay tests would be a good idea."

At a gym I climbed at in New Zealand it was assumed if you bring your own rope you know what you are doing. It is a strictly American reaction to immediately blame the gym, and in my opinion something we need to change. Unless draws are being pulled off the walls it hardly seems like the gym's fault. How about some personal responsibility.

I went to the gym after reading this thread. I found myself checking my knot closer and my partner's also. I've been climbing on and off for several decades. Maybe I had become complacent.

This thread raised my awareness and hopefully the awareness of others also. Maybe it will keep noob or one of the old cranky guys from getting complacent and decking.