The Gunks are way worthy!

Jake D. wrote:It seems that you are much better at crack and slab climbing than roof climbing so the Gunks feel hard and pumpy. and that is ok, i suck at slab and crack so i have to drop grades if i'm going to do that stuff. ie you said you pumped out at the top of Son of Easy O... i found that to be extremely easy and fun. I also think Modern Times felt easier than Snooky's and Columbia.

I'm solid at almost all disciplines to 5.9 (except maybe chimneys, haven't done one harder than 5.6 or 5.7). But repeated moves at the harder grades bring on fatigue. I've been doing pull ups regularly at home to improve my stamina on such things. But it's a good example that some routes/styles at the Gunks just can't be "technique'd" up and require raw strength to accomplish cleanly (ie - jug hauls, overhanging sections of 15 feet or more). Most of the people I've seen onsight and/or flash up Son Of (Double Crack, Modern Times, etc) were very strong climbers who could do 20+ pullups with relative ease. The power and stamina needed to do some of the harder moderates (5.7-5.9) at the Gunks is a common fact. I feel silly even having this conversation. lol

BTW, I do Son Of cleanly now and expect to lead it sometime next season... but I still think it's very physically demanding. ;)

Side note - I do NOT agree that climbers retain the ability to accurately grade routes that are well below their lead limit. I can barely tell a 5.3 from a 5.4 now, and I'm only feeling solid at 5.8 or 5.9 There was a time not that long ago I actually felt like I was climbing while doing a 5.3, now it's a cakewalk. In conversations with others, this has been the consensus. This is also why some areas allow R pitches to remain unmentioned if the section of climbing falls X number of grades below the route's grade. It should be easy for a climber leading 5 grades harder, hypothetically.

doligo wrote:I think it's amazing that one can live in NYC

I agree with that!

lucander wrote:Way worthy = go out at lunch break to climb Transcontinental Nailway and Birdcare in a t-shirt on a 55 degree December day, then make it back in time to put in a few more hours on the job. There's not many other places in the U.S. with that combination of excellence and access.

+1 for access and excellence.

caughtinside wrote: Bad news unrelated to Gunks radness Kevin... pullups aren't that useful for climbing. I bet I can't do 20 pullups and Modern Times just wasn't that hard. I know some gals who did it first try who probably can do one pullup max. It's all technique and footwork, even roofs.

Okay, well hang boarding then. The amount of effort cannot be denied (except perhaps by someone capable of leading 10d). Those routes require physical exertion, otherwise just anyone could do them. [I haven't done MT yet, saving for an onsight, but it has a reputation...]

Pull ups have been helping me, in addition to climbing whenever possible. All of us have different needs to round ourselves out. This is a physical sport after all.

I've seen exceptional climbers dance up things. They have great endurance (long muscle) strength, but strength nonetheless. Sorry if I wasn't specific enough about every possible climber or their unique physical attributes when making my obviously generalized, and again commonly accepted, statements about the Gunks.

here

we

go

again

The sky is above us. I'll take flack for stating the obvious there too. ;)

Pullups are definitely a great climbing exercise !!

And do modern times it is a hoot! A hoot? I've never used that expression before, I am turning into my grandmother...

caughtinside wrote:But maybe we should just leave things there, since you haven't actually done THAT route.

Fixed.

Been on plenty others that do fit the bill. I'll hold off final pumpiness judgement on MT until I do end up climbing it. It does have a reputation of being a bit of a haul, but the exposure is supposed to be awesome.

Are you suggesting all 5.8+ are created equal?

mountainproject.com/scripts…

There's 2 people who recommend a lower grade (5.8), coincidentally Jake D being one of them. PeterW I know and he's a very solid climber with tremednous strength. He could haul through it with no feet if he wanted, so of course it's not going to feel hard to someone with that amount of room for error/raw power. Perfect examples of how great climbers are the worse graders because their frame of reference is severely skewed by their raw talent.

18 that recommend a harder grade (5.9- or 5.9) . This may not be a definitive final word survey, but it rises above anecdotal personal opinion.

caughtinside wrote: no? are we leaking back into the whole 'gunks grades are way hard' thing again? You could call the route 5.9, I don't really care. Who knows, it might even be accurate! The thing is not 5.10 though. It's only over 5.6 for 15 feet though. Think you can handle that? Better hit the hangboard this winter.

Well, that was the entire point this sidebar was premised on.

There's no reason to be mean, especially when I'm complimenting people who don't think it's hard. Unless you just like being mean, in which case I won't stop you from being yourself. :-)

caughtinside wrote: Bad news unrelated to Gunks radness Kevin... pullups aren't that useful for climbing. I bet I can't do 20 pullups and Modern Times just wasn't that hard. I know some gals who did it first try who probably can do one pullup max. It's all technique and footwork, even roofs.

I can't do a single pull-up, am a girl 5'4 and am probably negative ape index. I've onsighted Son of Easy O and 5.8 was my leading limit at the time in the Gunks. MT is rather silly - a lot of 5.4 climbing followed by a 2-move crux. Sorry, Kevin, but Caughtinside is right - it's all about the footwork and body position to pull them roofs. Now Broken Sling, on the other hand....

I have a crazy hypothesis: A combination of good upper body strength (which can be helped quite a bit with pull ups), and proper balance and footwork is the best way to climb the Gunks roofs...

Everyone is right!

I thought MT wasn't too pumpy, and more mentally freaky than anything else, especially when I cut my feet out (more or less on purpose.) I thought the mantle at the end was more challenging than pulling the wild roof below it.

That said: I only followed it, it'll be a bit before I'll lead that climb.

caughtinside wrote:I tested in the 97th percentile for meanness when I was in 5th grade.

Ha, slacker.

doligo wrote: I can't do a single pull-up, am a girl 5'4 and am probably negative ape index. I've onsighted Son of Easy O and 5.8 was my leading limit at the time in the Gunks. MT is rather silly - a lot of 5.4 climbing followed by a 2-move crux. Sorry, Kevin, but Caughtinside is right - it's all about the footwork and body position to pull them roofs. Now Broken Sling, on the other hand....

Although we have not climbed together, you have a reputation for being a tough climber. Fwiw, not all hard routes (that myself and others often refer to) are roofs.

Back to Son Of, stemming your way up is obviously much easier and saves some on the arms ("got" this last time I did it), but still on lead having the skill to place gear quickly buys you a lot more time to avoids some of the pump that seems inevitible by time you can head right to the good rest. That skill varies climber to climber.

It really does come down to quality of the climber, and most people fall in the median, and those most loudly protesting the sandbagged reputatuion of the Gunks tend to be climbers who are most capable. Let us gumbies have our gripes!

Kevin Heckeler wrote: Although we have not climbed together, you have a reputation for being a tough climber. Fwiw, not all hard routes (that myself and others often refer to) are roofs. Back to Son Of, stemming your way up is obviously much easier and saves some on the arms ("got" this last time I did it), but still on lead having the skill to place gear quickly buys you a lot more time to avoids some of the pump that seems inevitible by time you can head right to the good rest. That skill varies climber to climber. It really does come down to quality of the climber, and most people fall in the median, and those most loudly protesting the sandbagged reputatuion of the Gunks tend to be climbers who are most capable. Let us gumbies have our gripes!

MT would be a 9 max at Rumney or RRG

my feet only cut a little bit on MT ;)... and other beta stuff i'll leave out.

on SoEO you can sack up and place gear when you need it and not every body length. pretty sure i placed like 3-4 pieces.. gunks bomber horizontals.. shove a cam and go. It is like 25' with a giant rest ledge you can nap on before the roof. That pitch deserves to go for another like 900 feet. it's not rocket science. Ask CI.. i'm a sport weenie to the core.

guess what, resting while overhanging is a technique and skill. Climbing an overhang smoothly and without overgripping and freaking out is a skill.

If you want practice, instead of going to Parking lot wall and Jimmy Cliff when you go to Rumney, go to Bonsai, Lower Vadar, Armed and Dangerous or New Wave.

CI i'm saving Kansas City for the onsight.. how about you? You saving anything for onsight?

Kevin Heckeler wrote: You lead 11a trad and 12c sport -- I doubt we experience climbing quite the same way. I still find some 5.8s and 5.9s challenging. You probably can't tell a 5.6 from a 5.9 [this is obviously meant as a quasi-compliment] One man's pumpfest is another's warmup. As I mentioned elsewhere, beware the infamous Gunks + (plus)

Having climbed with John at the 'Gunks, and having seen him both sketch out on a 5.6, and nearly a 5.1, and easily race up all the 8s and 9s we climbed, and the 10s I belayed and (tried) to climb, I feel fairly certain that he knows the difference between the grades.

But then again, he has an elitist reputation and believes anything below 5.10 doesn't deserve to be climbed. (tic)

And MT was WAY easier than I expected it to be. I waited a long time, too. Big mistake. That whole heel-hook beta...bullshit. Just use your feet and walk up. It lasts maybe 2 moves, three tops if you're shorter or have crappy feet. It's not even a pump-fest to be honest.

I thought P2 of Birdland was more challenging overall (longer crux, tricky-to-place gear, etc.).

SoEO - the pump is at the start. It lasts for a bit on the first pitch if you break it up. There's no need to, though, because as Jake said there's a HUGE take-off-my-shoes-pull-out-a-sandwich-read-a-book-take-a-nap-and-listen-to-the-birds rest before the final bit.

And I'm definitely not a 5.9 climber there (though Grand Central was also way easier than I expected it to be).

The 'Gunks are way worthy.

GMBurns wrote: Having climbed with John at the 'Gunks, and having seen him both sketch out on a 5.6, and nearly a 5.1, and easily race up all the 8s and 9s we climbed, and the 10s I belayed and (tried) to climb, I feel fairly certain that he knows the difference between the grades. But then again, he has an elitist reputation and believes anything below 5.10 doesn't deserve to be climbed. (tic)

You need to get with the times Greg. Everyone knows everything sub 12+ is just a waste of quality rock.

In all seriousness though, I love the gunks. Still my favorite climbing area out of everywhere I have been. There are awesome climbs at all
grades, at least the ones I can climb.

Top 5 East Coast Climbing Areas

Gunks
NRG
The Obed
Little River Canyon
RRG

What I've learned from this thread: in addition to the Gunks being probably the most fun pay-to-play, manicured, cultivated cragging experience in the East, it is just really fun to troll the locals there. The combination of East Coast uptightness, moderate grades, and the delusion that trad is superior there just results in tons of people like Kevin arguing passionately about single digit dummy warmups. Keep doing pullups, dude, you'll get to 5.10 in no time!

Oh, and my five favorite East Coast destinations, in order of preference:

NRG
RRG
T-Wall
Looking Glass
and, what the hell... The Gunks. They're worthy!

JohnWesely wrote: You need to get with the times Greg. Everyone knows everything sub 12+ is just a waste of quality rock.

I'm gonna retro bolt your 5.6 death slabs just to piss you off now.

My top five:

'Gunks
The New
'Daks
Acadia
NoCo? Cannon? Farley Ledge? It sure as shit ain't Rumney.

And I'm saving everything for the brown-point hang-dog (no falls, of course)

I love gunks climbing and have nothing bad to say about it. I could care less that the preserve is pissing money away on a retarded welcome center at the west trapps entrance. I don't think the season pass is absurdly priced. The only issue I have is them asking people to come in and volunteer time to do trail work. Why would I volumteer time and effort for something I already paid for. Rock and snow gives the volunteers a substantial discount on gear for volunteering but the preserve does nothing. Yes I'm aware what volunteer means but I think the right thing to do is give these people an option to work off their pass. I would love to help out bUILDING/rebuilding trails but I'm not gonna pay admission to do so. This is my only gripe and it irks me

worth russell wrote: The only issue I have is them asking people to come in and volunteer time to do trail work.

The Preserve didn't and doesn't ask anyone to do trail work. The volunteer trail crew is the result of Dick William's concern about cliff base erosion. Of course, everything the crew does has to be cleared with the Preserve, but the the Preserve does not solicit the work.

I would almost have to wonder if Worth isn't intentionally trolling with that comment, it seems so off. But I suppose it is just based on his assumption of the situation.

I am pretty sure in one of these two threads I did provide information about volunteering with the preserve, but in case not,or if it was unclear...

- The Mohonk Preserve has several opportunities for people who wish to volunteer. They do not solicit volunteers, it is on a....volunteer....basis.
- The Williams and Crew trail people, as RGold wrote, is a separate thing from the Volunteer opportunities offered through the MP Volunteer program. People who want to do this are always welcome to come and see if it is for them. Generally, we meet at the Steel Bridge at 9am on Sundays, from early May through October. If we have already left for the work, the ranger at bridge can tell people where to find us.
- The Williams crew do not avail themselves in the "perks" offered through the MP Volunteer program(see below), so if someone is looking to get something formal in return, this is not the thing for them.
- For the MP Volunteer program- go to the website at http:www.mohonkpreserve.org and click "Volunteer"in Nav Bar for information. The program does have a few perks.You can get a Volunteer Access pass after doing a set number of hours. Some people use that pass to get access for days the recreate on the land, others feel the pass is for access to do volunteer work. I do not think the MP takes an official stand on the issue, and leaves it to the individual. They also have at least one party each year as a Volunteer Appreciation thing.

People who volunteer usually find they are richly rewarded by the experience, but not everyone gets what this means. Not everyone is cut out to be a volunteer and that is okay.But the preserve is not overtly asking people to do that work, and I have to wonder what made anyone think this was the case.

As for the Williams trail crew, we have a solid group of kickass volunteers who work damned hard and every climber who uses the access trails benefits. For those who aren't using the trails...please do, so as to reduce erosion and allow plant base to grow(which in turn helps reduce erosion).