Silent Partner Leading...

S.P.L.T. Image wrote:Cool guys, if you have pics to share of your methods please do, I think I get what you're saying but a visual would be nice. Let me show you what I want to avoid. Good news is that I've located a nice 70m pitch 30 min away that I can put all this stuff to the test. Hopefully I will get out there Monday.

Holy Crap!

Is that a 100M rope?

Thats not even remotely what it should look like with a 60 or 70M rope.

I have loops on a 60 and 5 on a 70....and thats if I'm leading using the whole rope.

Also....Overhand on a bight! Much less of a cluster.

Wow that picture is extremely misleading!

josh

J. Thompson wrote: Holy Crap! Is that a 100M rope? Thats not even remotely what it should look like with a 60 or 70M rope. I have loops on a 60 and 5 on a 70....and thats if I'm leading using the whole rope. Also....Overhand on a bight! Much less of a cluster. Wow that picture is extremely misleading! josh

The pic isn't mine, it just illistrates the problem, admittedly to an absurd degree.

Report: I did a full 70m pitch with the SP a few days ago. At about 35m rope drag got pretty bad with both sides of the rope hanging down to the ground, no safety loops were used. It happens that at 35m there was a set of chains on this route so I plugged in, flaked the climbing side of the rope over my shoulders and slung the flaked rope on the chains to feed out for the rest of the pitch. This effectively alleviated drag for the rest of the pitch.

Some notes:
-I was using a Petzl 9.4 rope, there was drag created in the device so I'm going to try my Sterling 9.2 next time.

-At no point did I feel like the rope was going to back-feed, eg the weight of the anchor side of the rope would start pulling through the SP. This could change with the 9.2 rope.

-Instead of a safety loop, if I had a good rest I pulled up a section of rope and tied a clove-hitch on a biner and simply let that hang, when I got to the biner while climbing I could un-clip it one handed. So, if I fell AND the SP failed to lock it would run into the biner on the clove-hitch. I fear that this would damage the SP but like I've said before I have pretty good confidence in the SP locking up.

-When I found a bolt I clove hitched the rope to it giving my bottom anchor a back up and hopefully taking some weight off the anchor side of the rope.

-This route was a 5.6 slab so I think some of the rope weight on either side of the SP was diminished by friction on the slab. I'm looking for a more vert route to test this theory for the future.

I think the instruction manual for the SP recommends a rope w/ a diameter between 9.8mm and like 10.2 or something...

I use petzl 9.4mm also, and for this reason, put off buying an SP and soloing this season...

Would the SP catch a lead fall onto a 9.4?

I have to ask.

Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel?

A number of experienced users of the SP have weighed in with their experience(s). The majority of what is being said/described is very similiar. Folks have a few slight variations on the basic system, some based on function, some based on preference. But none of them really change the overall fundamentals that are outlined starting in the SP manual.
There is a reason for that; it works and is as safe as possible.

josh

Jon Zucco wrote:I think the instruction manual for the SP recommends a rope w/ a diameter between 9.8mm and like 10.2 or something... I use petzl 9.4mm also, and for this reason, put off buying an SP and soloing this season... Would the SP catch a lead fall onto a 9.4?

Yes, I have whipped on a 9.4 with no back up. The same rope I used a few days ago.

J. Thompson wrote:I have to ask. Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? A number of experienced users of the SP have weighed in with their experience(s). The majority of what is being said/described is very similiar. Folks have a few slight variations on the basic system, some based on function, some based on preference. But none of them really change the overall fundamentals that are outlined starting in the SP manual. There is a reason for that; it works and is as safe as possible. josh

I described why in earlier posts but basically I found the manual's way too tedious to use and therefore I'm trying to streamline the system.

Why are you making it hard on yourself? Climbing without a backup knot is stupid, mostly because it keeps the device from functioning properly. You only need to retire your backup clove maybe 4 times a pitch. You will have no drag, and you can climb on a beefier rope.

Blanchard tested the SP on ropes down to 8.9 and it worked, so going with a smaller rope is not a problem. The problem is that doing multiple single rope raps on a 9.2 or even a 9.4 will kill a skinny rope. The sheath will stretch and you end up having 2' of dead rope (sheath only) in a short order.

Anyways if you want to do it gumby style, I guess that is your prerogative. I hope it doesn't end badly.

Kevin Stricker wrote:Why are you making it hard on yourself? Climbing without a backup knot is stupid, mostly because it keeps the device from functioning properly. You only need to retire your backup clove maybe 4 times a pitch. You will have no drag, and you can climb on a beefier rope. Blanchard tested the SP on ropes down to 8.9 and it worked, so going with a smaller rope is not a problem. The problem is that doing multiple single rope raps on a 9.2 or even a 9.4 will kill a skinny rope. The sheath will stretch and you end up having 2' of dead rope (sheath only) in a short order. Anyways if you want to do it gumby style, I guess that is your prerogative. I hope it doesn't end badly.

I've explained previously that I found the loops a burden and I felt they would catch on various obstacles. Maybe that way works for your purposes but it doesn't for mine.

I've tested a few ropes and I've found that they feed differently, some a little tighter than others a little looser. This was directly related to the width of the rope but different brands of rope behaved differently too.

I have rapped on my skinny (single) ropes often and I don't have any "dead rope".

Regardless, I'm experimenting and posting my results with the SP because I didn't find much of that happening, if you don't like it don't read this thread.

I'd personally listen to everything Kevin and NBrown say. I've never met two more experienced rope soloist before. Climb safe and I hope you find a system that fits your style well.

S.P.L.T. Image wrote: I've tested a few ropes and I've found that they feed differently, some a little tighter than others a little looser. This was directly related to the width of the rope but different brands of rope behaved differently too.

FWIW. I found Edelrid 9.8 Eagle (dry ) to feed well, ( not so good now its getting worn ) ; Beal Edlinger 10.2 was a hopeless feed.
Cheers
Phil

Can someone explain to me like I'm 5,

What the backup knot does, and how it works?

I went out to use my SP yesterday, but It was getting dark and I did a very easy 5.7 and did not come close to taking a fall. This makes me feel like I did not use the device correctly, and just want to make sure that I have everything down for the next time I test it.

So my understanding of it is probably wrong, but is a backup knot where you first setup the device correctly (as per the manual), take about 30~ft of slack, then do a clove hitch and attach that to your harness?

Also, how would the SP work with multi pitch?
If you anchor on the ground and you reach the end of the first pitch where you're out of rope, how do you undo the ground anchor and keep going?

paOol wrote:Can someone explain to me like I'm 5, What the backup knot does, and how it works? I went out to use my SP yesterday, but It was getting dark and I did a very easy 5.7 and did not come close to taking a fall. This makes me feel like I did not use the device correctly, and just want to make sure that I have everything down for the next time I test it. So my understanding of it is probably wrong, but is a backup knot where you first setup the device correctly (as per the manual), take about 30~ft of slack, then do a clove hitch and attach that to your harness? Also, how would the SP work with multi pitch? If you anchor on the ground and you reach the end of the first pitch where you're out of rope, how do you undo the ground anchor and keep going?

1a. The backup knot serves the purpose much like knotting the end of your rap rope, in the event the SP doesn't engage properly the knot will jam the device causing you to stop falling all the way down the free end of the rope.

1b. For longer runs you also may want to tie into an anchor on the belay end of your rope to help take some of the rope weight off the SP, excessive rope weight could cause the device to feed automatically, creating slack in the system and resulting in a much further fall.

2a. Well there are two basic ways to multipitch as I see it. You climb half its length, setup an anchor, rappel/lower down to the bottom, clean the bottom anchor and either jug/clean or TR/clean back up to your anchor point. Setup a new multi-directional anchor and then do the next pitch. Soloing multi-pitch means you have to do 2-3x the work than with a partner. ;)

2b. Or when you climb the full length you would need to build an anchor, affix the free end of the rope to the new anchor and rappel or downclimb back down your rope cleaning as you go then TR or jug back up it.

Here is a video of someone doing a multi-pitch solo. They are using a modded GriGri but the principal is basically the same. youtube.com/watch?v=AN38LK0…

If you wanted to do pitches at the full length of rope you can haul a 2nd rope with you to rap/jug on for cleaning instead.

saxfiend wrote: 2. I set up three backup knots clipped to the right side of my harness. These are clove hitches clipped to notchless Positron locking biners, hung on my front gear loop with the gates facing down and out.

I'm not sure a backup knot tied to your gear loop is a very good backup. Or am I reading that incorrectly?

Hello everybody,
I am very interested in roped solo and I am reading the most I can to get the best out of other people's experience before getting a silent partner (that is, by the way, almost impossible to find in Europe).

A question came across my mind while trying to figure out how a solo lead could work:

would it be a good idea to use Petzl Tiblocs to stop the rope from dragging and auto-feeding the device?
If I think about it, to me it seems like it would fit better than a bootlace prussik (or similar) knot. Faster setup, better feeding of the rope in case of fall.

But if nobody came with this idea there must be a reason why. Could the Tibloc damage the rope somehow after a fall?

Thanks everybody!!!

Febs wrote:Hello everybody, I am very interested in roped solo and I am reading the most I can to get the best out of other people's experience before getting a silent partner (that is, by the way, almost impossible to find in Europe). A question came across my mind while trying to figure out how a solo lead could work: would it be a good idea to use Petzl Tiblocs to stop the rope from dragging and auto-feeding the device? If I think about it, to me it seems like it would fit better than a bootlace prussik (or similar) knot. Faster setup, better feeding of the rope in case of fall. But if nobody came with this idea there must be a reason why. Could the Tibloc damage the rope somehow after a fall? Thanks everybody!!!

Tibloc has very aggressive teeth, I'm pretty sure it would shred the rope on a fall.

Tradoholic wrote: Tibloc has very aggressive teeth, I'm pretty sure it would shred the rope on a fall.

A Tibloc has been used for many years on ice routes when moving together. The teeth are only taking the weight of the rope when you are on lead, so there shouldn't be an issue. One possible issue is if you plan to jug back up the lead rope to clean the pitch. You would then be jumaring off the teeth.

Febs wrote:Hello everybody, I am very interested in roped solo and I am reading the most I can to get the best out of other people's experience before getting a silent partner (that is, by the way, almost impossible to find in Europe).

Febs, the ebook "High" has a short chapter on roped soloing. Some images from the book can be found here: people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/

One of the authors has soloed A5 in Yosemite and the Troll Wall.

Thank you very much for the link. I got a book of mister Kirkpatrick just some days ago about placing nuts; good read.
I'll read "high" with care.

David Coley wrote: A Tibloc has been used for many years on ice routes when moving together. The teeth are only taking the weight of the rope when you are on lead, so there shouldn't be an issue. One possible issue is if you plan to jug back up the lead rope to clean the pitch. You would then be jumaring off the teeth.

NO.

The Tibloc should NOT be used for this.
It was tried in the past, and it shredded more than 1 rope.
The teeth on the Tibloc are extremely aggressive, more so than other ascending devices. The camming angle is also not there, this is because when set and weighted properly the angle is created by the way the carabiner weights the device. The Tibloc is designed to manually "set" in place. As opposed to other ascending devices that are spring load, they have a larger caming angle and much less aggressive teeth.
This technique really doesn't have any place in roped soloing.
It does have a place in simul climbing. But if you choose to use it, make sure you're using a spring loaded device, like the ropeman or a standard ascender.

josh