??Wolf's Head Accident - Aug. 18/19??

PRRose wrote: 1987 or so, ropes stuck near top of Prince of Darkness on Black Velvet Wall at nightfall. Lead back up on free end until I reached the other end. Anchored other end and prusiked. Cleared jam, reset rope, rappelled down, pulled rope. If I hadn't been able to anchor the end, i would have ascended the two strands.

See that's pretty much what I would do except if I ran out of the lead portion of rope I would signal my partner to simultaneously climb. We would have that agreement before I proceeded. Thanx for sharing! See we all can be nice can we? Btw we r going to practice simultaneous climbing on 11 mile dome I already know exactly the route I have in mind. Totally can't wait to do that! Sweet!

BigJuggsjohnson wrote: See that's pretty much what I would do except if I ran out of the lead portion of rope I would signal my partner to simultaneously climb. We would have that agreement before I proceeded. Thanx for sharing! See we all can be nice can we? Btw we r going to practice simultaneous climbing on 11 mile dome I already know exactly the route I have in mind. Totally can't wait to do that! Sweet!

Are you the stronger climber?

This posting is mostly directed to RockyMtnTed and his ideals.

I too am trying to understand the scenario that would leave bikenut sitting on a ledge not trying to climb his ropes to self rescue. However I come to the conclusion that the party that he had helped left him “hangin” and there was no other decision besides force overnight or climb the ropes. Bikenut, as other have said please do go learn these techniques and come back for more fun.

RockyMtnTed- I don’t understand your posting and overall attitude on this site. With the information on this string I think some people that are less skilled and less able to climb these routes in style have learned what to do prior to setting out on this adventure. It is the discussion of accidents that teach people how to avoid them without actually replicating them first. I don’t think your opinions nor attitude has helped in that what so ever. Actually I think you may have taken a couple of people that get themselves into this situation and dissuaded them from calling SARS. I hope you can live with whatever their outcome may be. Even if you feel that this person should have not called SARS but should have taken other approaches first or maybe should have know the exact decent route prior to embarking to these 50 classics, your postings do not help the climbing community in any way except to show that there are a fair share of @$$ HOLES mixed in with some people that wished to explain what this person should have done. I wonder what you do to your children see when they make bad decisions.

Lets agree that there are few lessons to be learned from this string and leave the descusion to this puropose and not to one of pointless banter.

•Know how to self rescue in the alpine world, it is more than just the style in which you perform.
•Know the route, this includes the decent as it is the most dangerous part.
•Know when and how to bail if you can
•Don’t get in over your head, be honest with yourself, pushing yourself can often be confused with making bad decisions in the world of egotistical people that can be brought in by list bagging
•SARS is there for real rescue, don’t make them a taxi cab afterthought.
•Also important please try to learn and explain to people the mistakes they made without being an @$$.

Don’t forget that our great country does a lot worse with tax dollars then send a SARS mission to the Crestones. Rant, over and out……

oh god...I thought the SARS pandemic was no longer a worry!

Sorry you try to type that much on a POS samsung

Wait. We get tax dollars for pulling off a rescue in the Crestones?

that is SWEET!! maybe I can get a stipend for hookers and blow

right now, all I can get is a subway sub with yummy avacado, it's a super-food after all

Well since I had a new account I was locked out from replying. Seems like I can now explain some more of the situation to some of the nice MP people along with the fat headed, moronic, "hard core" climbers.

So - was it a mistake to call SAR? Maybe. We did get out safely and that was the point. It always is. Should I have helped the party in front of me untangle the rope instead of passing them up? Maybe. Should I have freed the other parties stuck rope (twice) or rapped past them and yelled "see you in hell"? Maybe. Should I have used a single rope rap instead of making sure I could get to a bivy ledge? Maybe. Sure JLP that is obvious now. Shut your pie hole. And I did not call after an hour. I spent hours trying to free the ropes with every pull, bounce, jedi technique I know of.
There are two key factors into what went down. First is that I was in a bad motorcycle accident that meant my hip bone had to be used to rebuild my foot along with 4 pins and 4 titanium screws. It makes toe jams painful. It also makes stepping in a sling to ascend 200 feet of rope in rock shoes almost impossible. But that was the plan of course. I actually only called a ranger to ask for future weather conditions and to find out if they could determine if we were on the correct descent route. Bad weather would have put us in an entirely different situation and I had reason to believe we were off the descent route because the beta said that if you are "rapping off less than 3-5 bomber slings then you are off route" and we rapped off 2 worn slings. They put me in contact with SAR. So BackAtItAgain - yes we were going to wait till sunrise and then surely another party would be descending after lunch and free our ropes. And that is the way it should have went down. But what I did not realize is that by contacting SAR it was game on for these guys. I did not "call for a helicopter because I am lazy". Slim - you are a moron. Hell - I didn't even know they had one until I got a message that they would fly by and scope us out in the morning! So this kind of spun out of control. When SAR said I was doing the right thing and they were going to drop us a rope so we could come down I trusted their judgement. Although I have climbed all around the world I am not an expert and certainly not at the level of a SAR employee. So basically once we were in contact I followed any recommendations they gave me. There was no turning back. And you know what - they are top notch and we got down quickly and safely. Will I think a bit longer before I make any calls in the future. Yes. But if we descended further, weather got bad, etc. things could have quite different. To Mark S - the night out was wonderful. We had some clothes and food and the stars were amazing. We were lucky to have good weather. An unplanned bivy is part of alpine climbing and it was not the first or last time. So Doug - SAR ensured us to listen to them and that we did the right thing. I will believe them over an anonomous coward like J1.
And now some notes:
MIYG - I don't climb at the gym (or use a treadmill) but aren't all accidents due to lack of skill?
Cor - I should have waited longer but again I was just calling to get information. I also did not want the shit to hit the fan 20 hours later and then I am calling in desperation.
Stich - triblocs left in the car by accident. But prussiks work ok with a little extra oomph.
Kenan - true that we were on a rap route and not a 5.6 route that I could solo up.
Hamlet73 - you can shove that cookie up your ass. Or let me do it for you.
Jason Halladay - don't be jealous of yuppies just cause you are a wanna be dirt bag.
Eric Coffman -the "mountain lion" can also suck it. Sending me a personal message that I will never amount to anything really hurt my feelings...not. Now shut it.
SAR folks - you guys are great. Keep up the good work.
WH is a great route. Complicated descent and busy so best to avoid traffic. And since it is blocky - a single rope rappel is best to avoid a stuck rope.......

i'm pretty sure that i am not the one that comes off as a moron in this thread.....

Bikenut wrote:WH is a great route. Complicated descent and busy so best to avoid traffic. And since it is blocky - a single rope rappel is best to avoid a stuck rope.......

Well said!

bikenut,

thanks for the update.. i still hold by my view of not even
contacting SAR until the bitter end. they will always want to take
control if someone calls them. especially if you are asking someone
in another location if you are on the correct descent route...
i just think that calling SAR for weather is like calling 911 to
get a traffic report.

i am glad you, and everyone involved is safe. i would never want injury or worse on someone.

now let me ask a few questions though. you tried to get the rope unstuck. it did not work. did you even try to prussik? if you
can't do it due to a foot issue, what about your partner?
did you only have climbing shoes? where are your regular shoes?

i understand that the accident, and foot thing is an issue, but if
you can walk the whole way back there, carry all your equip, climb
such a long route, etc.. should you not be able to prussik?
(this is a real question, not a smart ass remark...)

wondering if you were off route... you know the descent is
described as being on the back side, and not down the front, correct?

thanks for reading, and maybe replying!

cheers,

softcor

Bikenut wrote:An unplanned bivy is part of alpine climbing and it was not the first or last time.

This is false, please do not believe that. You should have bailed. Thinking, "hey, it is fine that we are going to get caught out after dark on a technical descent is fine because we can always do an unplanned bivy like the hardcore alpinists..." is going to get you into the same situation again. Unplanned bivy's are not ok. Calling a ranger to see if they know if you are on the right descent route and to check the weather is retarded. Of course your call instigated SAR! Please change your thinking about your so called "alpine" bumbling.

If you are pushing your limits to do a long route in a day, unplanned bivys are part of the deal. It all depends on how you manage it. A night out on the summit in good weather, so you can get down safely the next morning is the smart choice.

I'm the guy who started this thread for the sole purpose of learning from the incident, as I was in the cirque that morning. I have read a lot of great discussions about dealing with stuck ropes, have posted a few good resources on the issue, and feel like a number of folks have walked away with new knowledge. And while many might have done things differently, I am disappointed by the arrogant tone some have decided to take. At the risk of sounding like a peacenik with my head in the clouds...Isn't the world filled with enough haters? Isn't climbing one of our escapes from the bullshit of everyday life and boring, unadventurous people?

And more practically, if you ridicule folks when they share their incident stories, we could drift towards a climbing culture where people will be afraid to share their stories and we won't have opportunities to discuss self-rescue techniques with such a large audience. So please, before you post take a few minutes and ask yourself if there is a more diplomatic way to get your point across.

Until, next time...I'm done with this thread - original purpose has been fulfilled...

Bikenut, you will notice that, unlike the Resident Experts, the SAR folks did *not* assume they completely understood your situation until they had seen it with their own eyes.

Most climbers have no experience with how specific a disability can be. Sadly, many are unwilling to even imagine it. Such is the world. At some point you just cut your loses and leave them behind.

I'm really impressed that you could make a phone call to Pinedale from Wolf's Head. Back in the day ... cells phones didn't have such good reception!

tom johannesmeyer,

i think it is hard to imagine people not speaking up in what they
believe. bikenut should not take it too personal. these people have the information provided to them, and they stated the feelings they
have. sometimes people don't understand that. even know it seems harsh the way people say things, they are just speaking from the heart, and are not beating around the bush... just like a parent telling a child something. the child may not want to hear it, but will eventually learn from it.

i may seem harsh in my statements, but i would say the same thing to a good friend. i would point out what i thought the errors were.
they might not like to hear it, but that is ok because it would be
straight talk coming from me..

in fact.. recently a friend got stuck up at longs peak. same sort of thingy, a stuck rope. they totally messed up, and needed a rescue.
i told them what i thought, straight up.

so anyway, i think that bikenut should not let this get to
him (or her) and realize that if you post on a public forum people
are going to speak their minds.(negative or positive - straight talk.)

c

Cor wrote:so anyway, i think that bikenut should not let this get to him (or her) and realize that if you post on a public forum people are going to speak their minds.(negative or positive - straight talk.) c

Fair enough

s.price, those is bad examples...

alex was killed while unroped at a camp, no technical terrain from
an avalanche that came from way up high.

micheal was killed by a rouge wave.

be safe out there everyone!

ok, bachar died soloing. which was skill related, but he was soloing.

hersey, same thing. soloing is a far more serious game.

skinner's harness broke. it was way too old, and he commented about it.
he also had a new one coming in the mail, which made it even sadder..

so i find those are not skill related. even while soloing, because
that is a whole different game.

any others? :)

s.price wrote:You can't say for sure bachars fall was skill related simply because he was soloing. Hold broke? Bird flew in his face? We will never know. Same with Hersey.

It was a bat. A bat flew in his face.

The character-attacks and name-calling are a bit much. Nothing wrong with being hard on the issues, which in this case are decision-making and alpine skills. It would be interesting to hear what Jed Williamson (Editor, AAC’s Accidents In NA Mountneering) would have to say about this incident.

The gist of what I’m getting from Bikenut’s comments here is that he chose to relinquish control of the situation and allowed the ranger/SAR to dictate the plan.

"I actually only called a ranger to ask for future weather conditions and to find out if they could determine if we were on the correct descent route." After getting info, politely decline assistance, tell them you will hang-up NOW in order to get busy with prussiking and that you most definitely won’t be there for the morning fly-by. Click.

"They put me in contact with SAR...But what I did not realize is that by contacting SAR it was game on for these guys." Not unless you agree to ‘game on’. Unequivocally decline assistance, tell them ‘thanks for the generous offer, don’t want/need a chopper, we’ll be down in a couple hours.’ Click. You think they’re going to fly after hearing that? If so, that's their decision and consequences. They’re not going to come after you with handcuffs and a citation. It isn’t unheard of for climbers to decline rescues.

"So this kind of spun out of control. When SAR said I was doing the right thing and they were going to drop us a rope so we could come down I trusted their judgment." You allowed it to get out of control. You trusted their judgment more than your own. If the chips were down (rain/snow, wind, cold temps) and you had to descend, you’d find it in yourself to get up your rope.

Talk of being slowed by other parties, motorcycle accidents, etc. amounts to nothing. You knew you were moving slow because of other parties but you chose to continue. You knew your rebuilt foot was compromised but you chose to climb. We all know what we’ve signed-up for when leaving the trailhead.

You make it sound as though you had no choice in the matter. You did and were complicit with others’ recommendations. That’s not a sin. No burning in hell. Take responsibility. Brush-up on requisite alpine skills. Glad all ended well.