walkie talkies for communicating with an out of sight climber

Just did Crystal Crag with my 11 son and it was WINDY. We had no radios, I told him to sit tight until the rope came tight on his harness then take apart the belay and start climbing. This worked fine but he was a little freaked by the high wind and loss of visual and verbal communication. He dropped a #2 Camalot and tried to yell to me to lower him to retrieve it but I could't hear him. This was one circumstance where a radio would have come in handy and I would not have lost a new Camalot to the party that followed us after we summited. I will in most cases say no to using radios but climbing with my kid might be the exception to the rule.

The Ouray ice park is the only spot where I have seen walkies come into their own.

Climber getting lowered needs to stop before he goes in river, river very loud, belayer back from the ledge out of sight, belayer busy posing down anyway. If you drop radio you are 30 seconds from a new one.

I climb mostly with my wife now, the thing I care about most.

Our rule...as stated, "when the rope comes tight, climb on..."

So, I've been in both camps: "these are neat-o!!!!", and "radios are for effin' sissy n00bs!!"

Truth is, they're not 'needed' 98% of the time because short, clear voice commands work well and you should have a rope tug backup plan. Single pitch, or busy crags are definitely NOT the place to use them. But on multi-pitch, they definitely reduce the stress factor if a cluster occurs or you're with someone newer to climbing.

I have a pair of these: target.com/p/motorola-black…. Cheap, small, light (occasional accidental button hit). I rarely use them, and rarely miss them, but sometimes acutely wish I had brought them.

They're emphatically the sh$t though on big walls if you're trying to move fast and/or hauling a bag (YMMV). There's a lot more communication required and when the afternoon winds in the Valley start up it can be hard to hear. I figure it's faster/safer to be able to precisely problem solve with a detailed plan to uncluster something, rather than screwing around tugging a rope and trying to "feel the bond" between myself and my partner (how many tugs for "unwrap the haul line from the lead rope?"). I think this is also true in cases where you're doing a combo of free/simul/shortfixing, or there are a lot of tension traverses.

I think the important rule to follow if you do use them is to communicate with them like you would your voice commands; short, precise, relevant messages. Don't make it a running conversation about anything/everything. That makes me go Hulk, and it also shouts n00bness...

These are very helpful at rifle for spraying beta when you dont want to be the guy shouting from the bottom of the wall all weekend. Also, you never know when a random cattle drive or deisel truck is gonna come through and cause a lot of noise which could ruin a flash attempt

I didn't even realize that Rifle had trad routes...

Radios are not required on multi-pitch.

Simply, know your partner...know the multi-pitch system...know the route...have none verbal commands dialed in when out of site or ear-shot.

Dr. Ellis D. Funnythoughts wrote:http://www.amazon.com/Dick-Tracy-Two-Wrist-Radio/dp/B0011WK1DW

+1 for these radios. Ever since I bought them my partner and I have been so much safer. There have been countless times were my partner has taken me off belay when I was still climbing, or vice a versa,

Some of the miscommunications we have had have been epic, for instance.

-one time my partner said Clipping, but I thought he said slipping and I took. I pulled him off with a wad a slack in his hand.

-another time we were ice climbing and he said Ice, but I really thought he said nice, so I looked up and got smashed in the face with falling Ice.

-This other time my partner and I were soloing the same route, I was about 50ft ahead and yelled down to him, It's So Good! He thought I said it's no good and traversed around a corner into a much looser and more difficult passage, After that we got lost from each other and didn't reconnect for about 6 hours and close to dark without headlamps. It was the most epic day on the flatirons I ever had.

but now that we have these radios, we haven't had any communication issues since. They really get the job done and I have found so many more uses for them outside of my climbing. Possibilities are endless.

I get a good internal laugh every time I see some one with portable radios.

I tried them,

Didn't like them, never went back to them.

Granted I tried them in my early years of climbing.

There are plenty better ways to communicate with your partner then radios.

If you've been at it long enough with the same or the same few people you don't even need to talk to know what's going on......

Some people are just too good for radios (obviously)
I had some once when i didn't really need them. The extra weight and hassle was barely noticed
Now I've been in a few situations (even single pitch) where I fuggin wish I had them.
Totally getting a pair of these

EDIT: nvm i want these

Jon Nellis wrote:Some people are just too good for radios (obviously) I had some once when i didn't really need them. The extra weight and hassle was barely noticed Now I've been in a few situations (even single pitch) where I fuggin wish I had them. Totally getting a pair of these

The operative sentence here is: "I didn't really need them" i.e. just more stuff to bring along. Extra stuff becomes a burden long routes at a difficult grade.

Once the essential skills of multi-pitch climbing become developed...one will develop efficient non-verbal communication skills and the two-way radios will be left home in the garage on the bottom shelf.

Let me guess...one hand on brake end of the rope when belaying, the other hand controlling the rope feed when belaying...and the other hand manages the communication on the radio?

Actually I belayed on a single pitch(sport) recently where the leader couldn't find the anchors. Turns out they were about 30 ft above her totally runout (woulda been nice to talk her through it effectively). Once she found them and we started lowering, we realized we had wrong beta and a 60m rope wouldn't get her to the ground. Luckily my buddy was on a neighboring climb and got over to her; they made a double rope rap. And all the while we couldn't hear each other, and there was intense rope drag.
Yes all of this could've been avoided if we had correct beta or were properly prepared, but we honestly thought we were. You can't always tell when shit is gonna hit the fan, and when it does I'd rather be able to talk with my partner than hoping they can remember all the different rope tugs(which wouldn't have really even been effective with all the drag).

Jon Nellis wrote:Actually I belayed on a single pitch(sport) recently where the leader couldn't find the anchors. Turns out they were about 30 ft above her totally runout (woulda been nice to talk her through it effectively). Once she found them and we started lowering, we realized we had wrong beta and a 60m rope wouldn't get her to the ground. Luckily my buddy was on a neighboring climb and got over to her; they made a double rope rap. And all the while we couldn't hear each other, and there was intense rope drag. Yes all of this could've been avoided if we had correct beta or were properly prepared, but we honestly thought we were. You can't always tell when shit is gonna hit the fan, and when it does I'd rather be able to talk with my partner than hoping they can remember all the different rope tugs(which wouldn't have really even been effective with all the drag).

I understand the trend towards gagetry and electronics now in the climbing world. (Personally, I wish the cell-phones were left home.)

And I know, that I am a crusty old bastard. However, being that this was a single-pitch route, having this potential cluster about to happen, knowing that safe and attentive belaying is a two handed endeavor...how would one even operate a two-way radio and maintain a safe situation. For that matter, the leader...who may have been sketched or wigged would also have the remove a hand to conduct the communication with a two-way radio.

I guess my point is that electronics will never replace good, sound and safe climbing practices and electronics should not be a substitute. My initial response, in my opinion, still holds true. A reasonable climber would not leave the deck without their harness, shoes, rope or gear on a multi-pitch route, so why would that same climber leave the deck without knowing their partner, without knowing the route, without knowing the multi-pitch system or not having non-verbal communication addressed. It's a matter of safety, competence and self-reliance, as a team.

Also, rope drag would be reduced through extensions or double-ropes.

Blissab wrote: I understand the trend towards gagetry and electronics now in the climbing world. (Personally, I wish the cell-phones were left home.) And I know, that I am a crusty old bastard. However, being that this was a single-pitch route, having this potential cluster about to happen, knowing that safe and attentive belaying is a two handed endeavor...how would one even operate a two-way radio and maintain a safe situation.

Uhhh...pretty easy to operate a radio with one hand on the brake rope.

Blissab wrote:For that matter, the leader...who may have been sketched or wigged would also have the remove a hand to conduct the communication with a two-way radio.

So, you've never chalked up besides at a no hands rest?

Blissab wrote:I guess my point is that electronics will never replace good, sound and safe climbing practices and electronics should not be a substitute. My initial response, in my opinion, still holds true. A reasonable climber would not leave the deck without their harness, shoes, rope or gear on a multi-pitch route, so why would that same climber leave the deck without knowing their partner, without knowing the route, without knowing the multi-pitch system or not having non-verbal communication addressed. It's a matter of safety, competence and self-reliance, as a team. Also, rope drag would be reduced through extensions or double-ropes.

True, but a radio could help. Ya know, in case shit ;)

Climbing Ethicist wrote: Uhhh...pretty easy to operate a radio with one hand on the brake rope. So, you've never chalked up besides at a no hands rest? True, but a radio could help. Ya know, in case shit ;)

So you are going to climb with a radio EVERY time for the one time out of thousand of pitches it might come in handy? Seems reasonable...

johnnyrig wrote:Get a set with vox. No hands needed. Would have come in handy next to the freeway next to the river where you could yell all you want and your partner hears nothing. Granted, if you're old and crusty you'd have some old archaic system of rope tugs to communicate, like two cans and a string. We don't. We're noobs and inexperienced and all that, so it's best for us if you point and laugh at the little radio clipped to our shirt collars. Yeah, that's right... I bought a set. Works great for chukar hunting too. Now if I could just get the universal translator from Star Trek so I could teach my dog to belay....

Well, two cans and a string don't require batteries.

Let me ask...what happens to your communication, if and when your little radio, which is clipped to your shirt collar is dropped hundreds of feet as you are squeezing your way through some constriction somewhere. Will you revert back to some old archaic system?

RockyMtnTed wrote: So you are going to climb with a radio EVERY time for the one time out of thousand of pitches it might come in handy? Seems reasonable...

Yes, pretty reasonable, light and easy. Especially useful in order to discuss Kant while on lead.

And to answer Blissab's question: Let me ask...what happens to your communication, if and when your little radio, which is clipped to your shirt collar is dropped hundreds of feet as you are squeezing your way through some constriction somewhere. Will you revert back to some old archaic system?

Yes, I would revert to the "archaic" system. Is that so hard to understand? The radio is a luxury and not mandatory but quite helpful from time to time.

I mostly agree with what folks have said. I've been climbing for 30+ years and you really should be able to practice with voice and rope signals till you really can communicate well with them. However, I've worked with radios for multi-pitch and have found them useful. They are almost never 'needed' but are damned nice to have sometimes. On alpine routes or really windy/weather days or when the decisions aren't straight forward, the detailed communication can make life much much easier and help to handle a lot of issues. Don't use them till you are really capable without them and then practice with them and don't totally rely on them. And that thing about line-of-site is rediculous. You can usually do pretty well up to half a mile without line of site and much farther with line of site. At 200ft apart on a wall, it's not an issue.

well im going to stir the shit some fer sure.

IM not a big fan of radios until the few times ive needed them ,Ive been climbing for 30 years myself and there are times that a radio has been a blessing and not a curse .They are secured
with tethers to keep them handy and super small so they can ride nicely on a harness or in a pocket .

1) Pic o the Vic area in Ouray when your down at the bottom waiting to climb after being lowered ,try feeling the tugs on a rope telling ya your on and its time to climb.Sometimes you can and sometimes ya cant Sorry but I like to know when I'm on

2) Petit Greppon Just below the roof when the wind is howling 50+ mph n yer tugging your ass off trying to communicate its time to climb.

3) bringing a newb up the second and the last pitch of the Army route in CS ,sometimes a few words of encouragement can get them to make the moves there frozen on and life is good.

4) Along the same lines as #3 Most new climbers forget all kinds of shit when there freaking
out , there minds need verbal confermation .

That's just four off the top of my head .I think where people get a really bad taste for radios is when they buy a GSM cheapo .I have two very tiny Kenwood ham radios that have the power
to cary that signal esp in UHF .

I dont believe there needed in every situation but they ride in my pack for the few times I do need them.

Walkie-talkies are called Talkie-Walkies in French. hehe That's all I have to say about that.

Climbing Ethicist wrote: Yes, pretty reasonable, light and easy. Especially useful in order to discuss Kant while on lead. And to answer Blissab's question: Let me ask...what happens to your communication, if and when your little radio, which is clipped to your shirt collar is dropped hundreds of feet as you are squeezing your way through some constriction somewhere. Will you revert back to some old archaic system? Yes, I would revert to the "archaic" system. Is that so hard to understand? The radio is a luxury and not mandatory but quite helpful from time to time.

Hey Ethicist,

I believe we agree totally..."The radio is a luxury and not mandatory". Similar to carrying the extra thick foam mat backpacking...makes for a comfortable night sleep, but after a while is a bitch to carry. At some point when the climbing gets hard...weight and extra stuff becomes an issue.

In any event, Iceman777 and Harold Lloyd make valid points and I can see the luxury of a two-way radio would be helpful.

However, it just does seem silly to me to see folks on a plumb-line two pitch route in the Gunks with clear visual contact using walkie-talkies to communicate. Not exactly the North-face of the Eiger.

It's just people preference and that's okay.

AB