Removable bolt trial by fire by manufacturer

Addison wrote: TR is not a free ascent.. There are mental factors that play into this along with all the other stuff you guys are spraying out like clipping and gear placement. For example, would it be easier and more comfortable for you to make a tricky move if you were attached to the wall from the top or if the consequence was taking a nice little whipper? Climbing is very mental guys. If your climbing TR and saying you got the "free ascent" then your just cheating yourselves, we don't care either way.

Eh, TR, lead, whatever, who cares. Sport climbing may be mental for you, but it is not for everyone. If I can do a sport climb on TR, I can do it on lead. I don't really climb any harder on TR than I do on lead (sport). The only exception is if the route has hard clips and the clips blow through some of my energy. But otherwise, it's all the same IMO. If we are talking about trad, that is a different story. But if someone did a route on a loose TR, with no hangs and all that jazz, then I would call it a clean ascent. But I would not call it an onsight/ redpoint. I guess you could call it a TR onsight/ redpoint, but clearly they are not one in the same.

If I am just going through a bunch of onsight attempts down the cliff line and I TR one route and get the TR onsight, I am fine with that, I will consider the route done. But if I am projecting something above my onsight limit on TR, and I get it clean on TR, I wont consider the route sent until I do it on lead. Basically, if it is within my onsight limit, I dont care if I am on TR or not, if I get it, I will call it sent. But if it is a project, I wont call it sent until it is a legit redpoint. Again, that only applies to sport climbing where there is not much of a mental game for me. With trad, if I am not on lead, I wont call it sent because trad is a bit more mental.

Darren Mabe wrote:TR is aid

hehehe... can be on a sloppy TR.

20kn - In think you make some really interesting points about how the difficulty might factor into the rational. This one particular route which has brought about this discussion is trad actually with a blank section midway that could lead to a groundfall from 30-40 feet up. So how does mixed routes factor into the onsight rational?

I've seen bolted climbs where the bolts are so close that half the time leading them you're on toprope. Is that half-aid half-free?

Chris Vinson wrote:RBs in climbing have changed dramatically since their introduction. They have been used for many things in the past (most notably ground up ascents of desert towers) but today they are mainly for establishing/bolting new routes, specifically for positioning the bolter. They make life a lot easier on steeper climbs. There are obviously several other possibilities for them, and we're always psyched to see and hear how people are using the RB, especially when it reduces the environmental impact for that particular situation.

Mainly used for positioning the bolter?

Go ahead and label me stupid, but this tradie can't figure out why you would want to drill a 1/2" RB hole to position yourself so you could drill a 3/8" hole to put a permanent bolt in, or how this reduces the environmental impact.

Eric Krantz wrote:Go ahead and label me stupid, but this tradie can't figure out why you would want to drill a 1/2" RB hole to position yourself so you could drill a 3/8" hole to put a permanent bolt in, or how this reduces the environmental impact.

Ya I was kinda wondering about this one too actually... seemed a bit redundant.

Addison wrote: TR is not a free ascent.. There are mental factors that play into this along with all the other stuff you guys are spraying out like clipping and gear placement. For example, would it be easier and more comfortable for you to make a tricky move if you were attached to the wall from the top or if the consequence was taking a nice little whipper? Climbing is very mental guys. If your climbing TR and saying you got the "free ascent" then your just cheating yourselves, we don't care either way.

I think you are drinking too many red bulls.

If you clip way over your head, then do the hard move, you just TR'd the crux. Man, you just cheated yourself if you didn't wait to clip till you were past the crux. Do you hang the draws first, then "red point" (pink point in the old days)?? Or do you always hang your draws from the ground up because that is more "pure" or better style?

Climbing is many things, sometimes mental, but for sport climbing, mostly just physical. Standards and ethics are local. Acceptable tactics change over time.

I'd recommend not getting caught up in judgmental arguments based on what constitutes an acceptable FA as that is not a constant. It's all climbing.

PT

I could see these being super useful for FAs of alpine routes. You could take a couple with you for anchors, the second could clean them...therefore you could get by with carrying a lot less bolts to negotiate the slabby(or other unprotectable bits) of the route. and not leave as much crap on the wall. Has anyone tried this?

JGHarrison wrote:I could see these being super useful for FAs of alpine routes. You could take a couple with you for anchors, the second could clean them...therefore you could get by with carrying a lot less bolts to negotiate the slabby(or other unprotectable bits) of the route. and not leave as much crap on the wall. Has anyone tried this?

I would doubt it, as I don't think all that many people are willing to hand drill a 1/2" hole or lug a power drill into an alpine setting.

Addison wrote:TR is not a free ascent.. There are mental factors that play into this along with all the other stuff you guys are spraying out like clipping and gear placement. For example, would it be easier and more comfortable for you to make a tricky move if you were attached to the wall from the top or if the consequence was taking a nice little whipper? Climbing is very mental guys. If your climbing TR and saying you got the "free ascent" then your just cheating yourselves, we don't care either way.

Clipping bolts on a sport route doesn't make your ascent special.

climbing doesn't make you special

Aric Datesman wrote: I would doubt it, as I don't think all that many people are willing to hand drill a 1/2" hole or lug a power drill into an alpine setting.

I know of several that do. Its a 1/2" hole, at least 1.5" deep.

Again, for establishing routes, the list of names is really big.

This crag was bolted with them for example.

So much for Alpine going fast and light!

The only way you can claim a free climb on TR is having footage and a lot of slack 100% of the time.

On the other side of the coin there are plenty of instances in Sport or Trad where a high clip + rope drag aids in physical and mental rest but these efforts would still be accounted for as a free ascent when in proportion they are probably similar to a decent belayer's unintended assistance on TR..

In reality in most of the modern popular sport crags, lines are bolted in a way that offers an illusion of risk that is not that far off from just TR'ing it. You're leading for 4-8'' and clip back to the safety of TR. Of course in old school areas with "sport" routes with 15-50'+ runouts, the reality of Leading is extremely palpable.

All nonsense aside, How Not To needs to drop tower some RB's!!!

This is my first time seeing the removable bolt. Is there a reason these aren’t being used to protect thin cracks? Do they need to be in a specific size drilled bolt hole to work?

Damn. Only a few months away from a full decade resurrection 

Ryan Bowenwrote:

Damn. Only a few months away from a full decade resurrection 

I know right, all to spout some trash about how back in the day people had bawls and shit on modern sport climbing.

Looks like a factor 1 fall.  No big deal

J Lindwrote:

Looks like a factor 1 fall.  No big deal

Where's the link to your video?

Jim Tittwrote:

Where's the link to your video?

I assume he’s referencing the very first post of this thread. You’ll have to go back in time a bit but the link looks like it’s still good.

The video is still active.

Damn thing is a 3/4” unit.

That is a big-ass hole. I'm not going to wreak that kind of havoc on my routes.

I have to wonder how well those hold at the route’s crux with 100’s of falls and the hole galled out.