Who uses a grigri to belay trad leaders?

I thought I remembered reading that the GriGri 2 had a softer catch in one of the reviews when it first came out. However, I cannot find it after doing a search, so I might be wrong. It would be interesting to see data on it and the Smart.

I use a grigri for all single pitch climbs, but an ATC for multipitch, of course I do use it for big walls......

But I am also very light and will give everyone a soft catch, especially big dudes.......LOL

BurtMachlan wrote: And why cant you rap with a grigri???

Id imagine there are at least two ways to rap with a gri...

With only one rope, tie a knot in it with a biner, like an overhand or figure 8 on a bight, and rap on the opposite side.

Same as if you had a tag line. Just tie em together and rap the rope side, pull the tag side down.

This assumes there are bolts, or you are leaving gear/webbing for your raps.

Caleb Padgett wrote:I like to belay with a gri-gri on trad routes and I LOVE when my belayer is using one as well. I climb primarily in Zion np and constantly deal with loose rock on both established routes and new routing.

This is a pretty real concern on any type of rock I've climbed so far. Just this weekend my friend landed a sweet move to a chicken head that looked bomber... but the granite blew and a 8 or 10 pound chunk of rock flew at my face. If it hit me, he'd have been on lead with no belay I'm certain of it. I've never considered an auto-locking device until this weekend. It may very well be my next purchase.

I like belaying trad leaders with a GriGri because it allows me to pay out armloads of slack WAY faster and smoother than with an ATC, making those desperate clips easier.

NC Rock Climber wrote:Thanks Geir and Mattm. That is good information. If I am reading the Beal data correctly, some of the GriGri Impact force #s are 50% greater than the ATC type devices. To me, that is significant. It would be interesting to see how the Mammut Smart and the GriGri 2, both of which reputedly have a softer catch, would do in a similar test.

I was measuring differences of 1-2kN between the ATC and GriGri in real world tests, which is why I am mostly concerned about small or sketchy gear with the GriGri.

I can totally understand the desire to have a GriGri to help provide another layer of safety should the belayer be struck with a rock.

Always use a gri gri or some auto locker... shit happens... and i would suspect a really soft catch can make all the difference in forces loaded during a fall.

S.Stelli wrote: Id imagine there are at least two ways to rap with a gri... With only one rope, tie a knot in it with a biner, like an overhand or figure 8 on a bight, and rap on the opposite side. Same as if you had a tag line. Just tie em together and rap the rope side, pull the tag side down. This assumes there are bolts, or you are leaving gear/webbing for your raps.

Thanks.... I guess. I wasn't asking how to rappel with a gri gri though. I was more asking the other poster why he thought you couldnt rap with a gri gri.

BurtMachlan wrote: Thanks.... I guess. I wasn't asking how to rappel with a gri gri though. I was more asking the other poster why he thought you couldnt rap with a gri gri.

Maybe I should have quoted both you and DBarton, then... lol
Context is great - I meant no offense! I'm sure most people know how to rap with a Gri.

Bob Dobalina wrote:I like belaying trad leaders with a GriGri because it allows me to pay out armloads of slack WAY faster and smoother than with an ATC, making those desperate clips easier.

Wow - That's the first time I've EVER read someone say a grigri is FASTER than an ATC....

What are you doing with the ATC that makes it so slow?

EDIT: Crap - that still reads a bit tool-ish. Not meant like that. I've just NEVER heard someone say throwing slack with a GriGri is faster than a tube device so I'm curious what's so different...

mammut alpine smart ... supposedly theres a slight bit of rope slip to reduce the force on gear ...

either way i find it cheaper, lighter, more intuitive to use, and more rappellable than a gri gri

rock fall can be a serious concern with people above you ... you just never know ...

bearbreeder wrote:ither way i find it cheaper, lighter, more intuitive to use, and more rappellable than a gri gri

curious as to what makes it more rappellable? I have never used one...

People keep on bringing up the Smart as a great compromise. It looks really interesting, but has anyone actually done the tests to show that it creates less impact force than the GriGri?

BurtMachlan wrote: curious as to what makes it more rappellable? I have never used one...

Slots for two rope strands.

mattm wrote: Wow - That's the first time I've EVER read someone say a grigri is FASTER than an ATC.... What are you doing with the ATC that makes it so slow? EDIT: Crap - that still reads a bit tool-ish. Not meant like that. I've just NEVER heard someone say throwing slack with a GriGri is faster than a tube device so I'm curious what's so different...

The "new" technique to pay out slack (using your thumb and middle/index fingers together to depress the cam) that comes with the GriGri 2 is SUPER slick! It works smoother and easier than the "yank, hold, yank" technique needed with ATC's. It feels like you are pulling the rope through a pulley.
Trust me, I was just a s surprised as you!

Andrew Haag wrote: Seems like there is too many factors and variables to come up with an acurate Kn difference.

This is my feeling too. I outweigh my fiancee/belayer by around 60lbs. so even a tight belay with a Grigri becomes dynamic when I fall.

I also find that it's faster to pay out slack on a Grigri 2 than on an ATC; the origianal Grigri wasn't bad, but the new version is much better for lead belays. With the ATC you need both hands moving to feed the rope through, whereas on the Grigri 2 one hand holds it closed and the other can just yard out armfuls at a time.

BurtMachlan wrote: Thanks.... I guess. I wasn't asking how to rappel with a gri gri though. I was more asking the other poster why he thought you couldnt rap with a gri gri.

True, you can rap with a grigri, but you might get your rope stuck from the knot. Also the smart can be rigged two ways to rap (fast mode-backwards) and (locking mode-regular setup). And, in the event that you are a fair distance above the bottom of the rope, if you get clobbered by a rock, the smart will lock up and hold you (while in rap mode).

mattm wrote: Wow - That's the first time I've EVER read someone say a grigri is FASTER than an ATC.... What are you doing with the ATC that makes it so slow? EDIT: Crap - that still reads a bit tool-ish. Not meant like that. I've just NEVER heard someone say throwing slack with a GriGri is faster than a tube device so I'm curious what's so different...

I have been climbing since 1975 and I can pay it our faster with a cinch or gri. Now you have heard it twice.

The difference is that an ATC creates a little bit of friction so yu have to use two hand to feed the rope. A properly used cinch or gri allows the rope to run smoothly. As was said I can give out two armloads very quickly and only short rope someone if there is a kink in the rope I don't get cleared fast enough.

Geir did real world tests on the two devices and as he said it was only a difference of 1-2 kN. So it only matters if you are on tiny gear.

1Eric Rhicard wrote: I have been climbing since 1975 and I can pay it our faster with a cinch or gri. Now you have heard it twice. The difference is that an ATC creates a little bit of friction so yu have to use two hand to feed the rope. A properly used cinch or gri allows the rope to run smoothly. As was said I can give out two armloads very quickly and only short rope someone if there is a kink in the rope I don't get cleared fast enough. Geir did real world tests on the two devices and as he said it was only a difference of 1-2 kN. So it only matters if you are on tiny gear.

There was a post over on RC.com where Jim T. chimed in on various tests and impacts etc. The short answer is that the GriGri DOES provide a harder catch, anywhere from 30-50%.

There's a fair amount of drivel to start but Jim's posts further along have valuable info.

ATC vs GriGri post

Here's Jim's sutff
For a Grigri the slip appears to be around 3" for almost any length of fall, for the Cinch it is from virtually nothing up to lots of feet in a hardish fall (I´ve got some drop test results somewhere which are quite exciting in that respect).
For plates (ATC´s etc) the slip starts in feet and goes on up massively depending on impact, fall energy, belayer strength, number of runners, rope dia etc.

Plenty of tests on all this but as usual in German or Italian however outdoor testing with real belayers is quite difficult as the variables are all so large you don´t get much meaningful data and probably the conclusions would be misintepreted by the normal climber.

A big guy like me that bashes metal most of the time can get higher values with an ATC than a whippet-thin girlie with a Grigri anyway so its going to be hard to make any useful rule except:-
A Grigri hits harder than a plate all things being equal by about 30-50%.
The Cinch hits harder than anything on small falls but less than most in large falls.
Jumping in small falls is possibly worthwhile, in big ones it´s not.
Jumping is never as good as dynamically controlling the rope slip because as stated earlier the slip is measured in lots of feet and climbers don´t jump that well.
The peak force on the top runner occurs before the rope starts to slip through the device and to reduce this force you need to allow a lower initial slip value and then increase the breaking force which is why dynamic belaying is the way to go.
Force Factors are not particularly relevant, the length of the fall is. One can have a FF1 directly onto the belayer without any intermediate gear or a FF1.9 with 100 karabiners forcing the rope through such contortions that the belayer feels nothing. This is in fact why the Petzl calculator is useful as it allows for this to some extent.

Wear gloves.

Jim

I use a GriGri 2 for all my belaying now and don't even use my ATC any longer. I too feel that I can feel in or out of my GriGri faster than I could thru the ATC - but that's me. I too also like the fact that if I am ever inadvertently knocked unconscious by a rock or ice fall my partner wouldn't be in serious trouble with a slack rope.

I climb most all Trad and have had no problems with the GriGri at all.