Belay Anchor

As for "it's just a TR" I've heard here, had a fellow set up a belay with that attitude and I went 45 feet, and barely was caught.

He had a directional which blew when I fell and was doing the old sport 8 belay, so he ended up with a groove welded into his palm (or I'd be dead), and I ended up with a new partner.

All it takes is one thing to go wrong and you might load that TR anchor rather severely.

I'm a member of MP, nice language.

I would have said something like -

"Hey, do you guys need a locker? I've got an extra one you can borrow"

and offered them one of the extra lockers I usually have.

As long as they weren't obviously endangering anyone that's probably all I would have done. Sure they could be safer, maybe they're just noobs but maybe it's how they like to roll.

coldfinger

Tying the clove so that the load strand is closest to the spine is a load of crap. The difference it makes is negligible, look up the data. I agree the spine is strongest but the way the clove is tied dose not make a difference in the real world.

Trevor V. wrote:coldfinger Tying the clove so that the load strand is closest to the spine is a load of crap. The difference it makes is negligible, look up the data. I agree the spine is strongest but the way the clove is tied dose not make a difference in the real world.

All I'm going to say is this:

Look again at the photo, the clove hitch is right up against the gate, a wiregate (famously easy to clip or unclip for that matter). One iota of biner rotation and its ON the gate, perhaps with the help of movement created by the sliding x system.

More importantly the clove is a knot THAT DEPENDS ON THE BINER TO STAY TIED!

Clove hitch bomber with a locker but not so much with an ultralight small wiregate.

coldfinger wrote: ... Clove hitch bomber with a locker but not so much with an ultralight small wiregate.

This is kinda the direction I'm in; I would have liked a locker on the power point. Belaying for a seconding climber, I don't really have a problem with the overall anchor. I wasn't there leading and don't know the entire situation, but I'm not 'shocked' as long as the two placements are solid. Again, I would rather have a locker on the power point.

I generally go with Abb. 15 part b.

If I throw a 3rd (& possibly 4th) pro placement to distribute, I usually keep them tensionless away from the main two, or use cord between all. I don't really see these multi-point anchors in and of themselves giving me a problem, provided solid placements & good angles, even though they get beat into the ground through discussion.

What's more important to me is position on the route.

coldfinger wrote: First off, to the usual flip poser posters: you completely missed the obvious. That being said, howdy all. Here's the big problem: that SINGLE anchor/power point biner is loaded in THREE directions, which the sliding X may also subject to a cross load across the gate depending on angles and placements. That and the clove hitch moves the load AWAY from the spine (BAD #1--as biners are strongest when loaded along the spine) and toward the gate (BAD #2 as either it could open the gate and affect the knot and/or biners are weak when opened AND also subjected to multidirectional loading from the two blue sling strands). If you must use a sliding x: please consider a 26 gram device that can be loaded on 3 axes and cannot be subject to open gate loading. If not (either because you choose not to or don't know what that device is), please use a knot in the cordelette, sling, etc. to avoid loading your power point in THREE or more directions.

A sliding X does not load a biner in 3 directions. The forces pulling outwards towards the anchor points are internal to the sling and cancel each other out. They never actually enter the biner.

Dana wrote: Actually, she is a he. Or so I've been told.

Sorry man. I actually thought about that when I posted, but alas, I was too lazy to make the post genderless. Cheers.

bwalt822 wrote: A sliding X does not load a biner in 3 directions. The forces pulling outwards towards the anchor points are internal to the sling and cancel each other out. They never actually enter the biner.

Could you elaborate on this? Are you saying regardless of the angle of the sliding X?

Trevor V. wrote:coldfinger Tying the clove so that the load strand is closest to the spine is a load of crap. The difference it makes is negligible, look up the data. I agree the spine is strongest but the way the clove is tied dose not make a difference in the real world.

Trevor...good post...made me google and I found this ...

climbingguidesinstitute.org…

Edit...

But then I read this...how were they able to break a biner but in the PDF they couldn't?

guidetricksforclimbers.com/…

Mitch Musci wrote: Could you elaborate on this? Are you saying regardless of the angle of the sliding X?

No matter what the angle of the sliding x (even if its approaching 180 degrees) it will not load a biner in three directions. Think about what a sliding X is... Its just a biner clipped around both strands of a sling but one of them has a twist in the middle. This twist only squeezes the biner (and imparts a small inconsequential moment) at the point where its wrapped.

Also with a sliding x that twist can unwind and the biner will be clipped to where the sling crosses itself. In this circumstance its easy to see that there is nothing pulling the biner apart.

Basically the sling legs pull on each other in the outward direction instead of pulling on the biner.

Make a sliding x with a bad angle on your fingers, you will see that it doesn't want to pull them in three directions.

coldfinger wrote:More importantly the clove is a knot THAT DEPENDS ON THE BINER TO STAY TIED!

That's why it's called a clove hitch, not a knot.

coldfinger wrote:Clove hitch bomber [sic] with a locker but not so much with an ultralight small wiregate.

Have you ever checked the difference in strength between an "ultralight small wiregate" and a solid-gate 'biner? The difference is negligible or non-existent.

Locking vs. wire-gate vs. solid-gate 'biner is only a factor if the 'biner is open if and when it's shock (or heavily) loaded. In that case, a wire-gate 'biner is actually better than a solid-gate 'biner because it's less likely to open. If you want to test that yourself, bang a solid-gate 'biner against the heel of your hand and see how much force it takes to open; next do the same thing with a wire-gate 'biner.

Of course it's theoretically better to use a locker because it can't open if it's locked, but in practical terms I don't think it makes much of a difference. Ever tried popping a clove hitch off a 'biner while it's loaded? It ain't easy.

I agree with some of the others on this thread. You really shouldn't be spouting off. You don't seem to know what you're talking about.

It's not entirely off base to question the power point biner, that is the weakest part of the system.

Buff Johnson wrote:It's not entirely off base to question the power point biner, that is the weakest part of the system.

I agree. But coldfinger doesn't understand the differences between how each type of 'biner effects the power point.

johnL wrote:Good pin and a good cam? Why is the sky falling? I'd personally be pissed if my partners nitpicked every little thing I did without citing in very specific terms what exactly the problems is. "I climb with guides that don't like this" IS NOT a reason to do or not to do anything.

+1

I've climbed with dudes like the OP who seem to have a lost arrow wedged up their arse. They're bummed when they find I'm hip belaying them, drinking a frosty cool C-. Then they start a thread.

Lurking Queer wrote: +1 I've climbed with dudes like the OP who seem to have a lost arrow wedged up their arse. They're bummed when they find I'm hip belaying them, drinking a frosty cool C-. Then they start a thread.

Are you sure it was a lost arrow?

Coldfingers and Mattm's posts are pretty good.

Yes, the single PP with a clove hitch is a error. Its an error that can kill, especially if its behind the belayer, who is watching the climber. Whay too much rope wrapped around a single wiregate (the clove hitch), if it wriggles around it may load the wire, and that would/could be deadly ugly.

The warning about the pin is valid too. Climbers almost never carry hammers now, and without a hammer, you got NO idea how good a pin might be, you gotta bang on them a little to know if they are still seated, pins loosen when they heat/cool cycle. I would use the pin, but NOT on a sliding X, I'd use it as a backup on a seperate sling, and weight the cam more directly. Equalizing bad placements does NOT make you safer. Anchors should not be bad placements. ((Yes, I know, I have even belayed off my hammer as the single point anchor, but you won't live long if that kind of stuff becomes habit.

I would tie a figure eight as the PP, use two biners reversed (or a locker, who really needs two lockers on a pp?)

My words are NOT the only way to do it, but its how I would approach the problem.

I usually mention it when I see somebody about to kill themselves. I want to have a clear concious (sp) and still be able to say "I told you so". Then I leave and occasionally watch the show from a distance.

Or not.

I can't be involved with saving every idiot I run across. There are just too many of them. And half of them think MY technique is stinking bad, anyway.

I would have no problem with the guy just up above drinking his C while belaying me, such people seem to usually have what they are doing wired ruthlessly. YMMV.

I used a hip belay for like 15 years until they invented the stitch plate. Seems good enough to me if you know how to do it. The guys using it nowadays are all as old as hell and can lock off a fall while sleeping, from habit.