climbing ban at ramapo powerlines

I appreciate the climbing experience and indepth thoughts, and if we can talk the same language, we can definitely find a solution and ethic. Al Piner, one of your thoughts resonated with me, so stick with me here.

One of the people who helped precipitate the climbing coalition, property line investigation, and subsequent notice of closure, is a environmentalist that helped saved the Torne Valley from development, prosecute Ford for dumping sludge, monitor the solid waste site, catalog the Indian burial sites and create biodiversity studies in the area.

I was out with him yesterday, talking about key habitats and Leave No Trace, and he said 'I can't believe it, this used to be my secret.'

Two months ago, a boulderer complained about someone dry-tooling on the Main Tower Wall. Not thinking, I said 'There's always this moment when you figure out you've got to share what you've got. It's tough.' He took the wrong way, like I was saying he had to open his mind, but I meant the dry-toolers probably had no idea that every single one of us had probably climbed in the same spot and would see the marks.

It's tough. It's very very tough, and the climbers at the coalition meeting talked for a while about keeping low profile, and then someone said (in my own words) - 'you can stick your head in the sand, that's definitely an option, there are people in this room who cannot use the area because they are lawyers or public figures, and the rest of you, it's only delaying what we will have to deal with and leaving the opportunity for losing ground with the PIPC.'

So, there have been some wise words said here about community, and there has definitely been a set of people using the Powerlinez. Dry-toolers, hunters, piton hammerers, trial bike riders, ATVers, NJ/NY Trail conference walkers, the Ramapo Town Attorney, the Ramapough Indians, trad, rad and boulderers. And no one had to coordinate or worry about coordinating or taking responsibility.

Now the trial bike riders, ATVers, hunters, are probably out of luck due to PIPC ownership, and just maybe the dry-toolers. But, I think the key to this thread is that we climbers have a claim to stake. It's true, the area specifically lends itself to climbing, and the PIPC is listening to us.

So where am I going with this? 'The masses are asses.' Thanks again Al. They can be, we all know that, but they don't have be. There are individuals and groups of people we know that are stand up and make sure the right thing happens kind of people.

I was talking with this environmentalist and he mentioned the hype of the guidebook and the internet site. How I mentioned 'Stop in, there's something for everyone!!!' And I said, maybe the next guidebook is less hype and we just aim to have the best local crag on earth. And that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

So, if this has been your local crag, then we have something common. Something in common with a lot of really smart people through-out NY and NJ, and a history of people from horse thieves to a tribe of indians, to Revolutionary soldiers to a power company. And our local crag is again in the grip of history.

We change the historic policies of a land management giant or we lose that local crag. That's overwhelming. Now, all of this perspective might be recap for you, but I think what crystalizes all these examples is: that it's us. The people in this thread, the private local craggers, who just found out that their secret is the next big thing or it's gone. We are the ones with a stake to claim.

(my next turn I'll answer bolting questions, but I wanted to talk big picture first.)

And bolting. Not to detract from my prior manifesto, but it will.

I think what's key to discussion of bolting is the Good Book Wall. Did a good tri-cam placement blow out? Are there flakes that flex, rock going to sand and flakes of exfoliated sediment in horizontal cracks? Do holds pop off in your hands? If you haven't been up there, I realize it's hard to find and the approach is twisted, but you'll see that the rock is very different from the rock down below. And we're not talking Rumney here - this wall is probably just 1/10th of the area just not that convenient.

I think that the main Tower Wall, the tallest one you can see from the highway, should not be bolted. It's been recommended to me, by someone I truly respect, that the cruxes could use some more protection. If you've climbed Rachel's Crack, straight up the middle, you know the moment I'm talking about. But all of these were lead trad and I think that's pretty definitive.

If you've been up to the Good Book Wall, and you want to lead those climbs traditionally, I think that would really open up the debate on whether there should be bolts. That I would like to see, but I'm no Cesare Maestri putting up the Compressor Route. I've done 5.8 R, but with the likelihood that the rock could fail, this might be 5.10 X stuff. The rock reminds me somewhat of a Red Rock like sandstone without the hard patina/crust.

As far as our bolting experience, Dave took a class and mentored when he was working at a camp just south of Yosemite. He was thinking of spending another summer out there and developing some areas south of the valley, so he had a drill. He was past the stage of torque wrenches, and under his expert tutelage I didn't over-tighten the bolts. We used 3/8 x 3 3/4" zinc-plated. Longer bolts because the rock is soft, and we wanted it bomber. The hangars are all camouflaged a reddish color ordered from Fixe so that they match the rock. The blog reads here.

bolt pics

While I don't like having my tri-cam judgement questioned, I think it's necessary as we are establishing expertise. When I took the single pitch instructor course I was told to put the stinger behind a crystal as a gold standard. At that time, I'd climbed for 18 years and I didn't like having my tri-cam judgement questioned either. Of course, that is in the Gunks, where pebbles are pretty well cemented, but you can be sure that the tri-cam we used on the Good Book Wall was not just behind a crystal but buried in a pocketed horizontal. The rock is soft.

Sorry to hear about your fall CMS829. That will change you, right? And I think that when we came together and thought about this small section of the Powerlinez we took it very seriously. We've all lost sleep over dangerous moves and lost sleep thinking how great it would be if we just went for it. Now time will tell.

I only have a minute right now...But would just like to say that the optimal tri-cam placement is within a constriction, not with the stinger precariously placed behind a crystal or other protrusion of a conglomerate. No one is question YOUR tri-cam placements. I have never seen you place one. Hell, Ive never met you yet. For all I know, Camp should give you an award for best tricam utilization! :) The only thing Im saying is that, the way the placement in question was INITIALLY described (in your blog), it was a crap placement that I wouldnt of trusted, even while standing in my aiders bouncing on it. (And I have stood off a WC zero #1 and bounce tested the SHIT out of it many times...in rock that was likely much worse then that of the powerlines) But regardless....initially it was said that the stinger was placed behind a crystal, and it broke, causing the placement to fail. No where did it mention it was in a proper constriction, which blew out a fair amount of rock, causing it to fail. Placed in the proper constriction, a tricam must take out huge chunks of rock in order to fail. Im just saying....No one is pointing fingers, Im certainly not, anyway. I could give a shit who placed it, it could of been fred flintstone for all I care. So dont take it personal. In your blog it quotes kevin saying "It broke off the crystal that was holding it (the stinger.)'" Lucy, you've got some 'splainin' to do... LMAO

I'll write more later. This doesnt mean anything really. Just talking tricam placements. Like I stated yesterday, the bolting discussion shouldnt really take place right now anyway. It should be done up there on a sunday morning over coffee. lol

And no, the only thing my fall left me with was a broken ankle. lol. And a new respect for offwidths! Aside from that, It just pissed me off, I spent the rest of my vacation bass fishing on my boat with a god damn stick crutch and sore underarms

All good points, and yeah ... I can see that I'm not going to get the poor description of a decent tri-cam placement by anybody here! Maybe we're on the Cerro Torre standard and someone's going to climb it and chop it, but any way you slice it the internet will be a food fight. See you with coffee on Sunday.

Lol I'm just bustin ya Jon. No worries. It's all in good fun. And no one here is anywhere near Cerro torro! That's for sure. I wouldn't doubt that I can't lead a lot of the trad leads there above 5.9. But someone could. I commend your efforts and hope to join in the good fight soon! Maybe we can have a Tri cam setting contest! Whoever wins has to lead the hardest route there, bolt less! Lol

Jon- I appreciate your passion a little better now. Mistakes were made on assumptions. What's done is done. It does not seem like you are giving up easy on this.

Dealing with the PIPC will be a whole different ballgame than dealing with politicians.This can be both good and bad. The bad being it will be harder to convince the PIPC on issues of safety and environmental impact. The good being if they were to accept climbing, there are many other areas spread throughout their park system with decent climbing potential on quality rock.( Not the Palisades !) A lot of the inquires they receive on climbing are about the Palisades that run along the Hudson. They will never allow climbing in this area and for good reason. It's 10 miles of refrigerator size (or larger) death choss.

I hope to talk to you about some of these other areas and ideas I have. They may be a little more adherent to a trial allowing climbing in a smaller remote crag to see what the impacts are before allowing access to The Torne.

On the lighter side,
-No plated steel. Stainless is not that much more expensive.
-I volunteer to paint those Honkin'Orange hangers that are already up.
-Tricams do rule (almost everywhere ). The little white one held my fat ass (200lb+ rack)on a six footer. Inward flaring crack where "nothing else would work". And only two lobes contact to boot.

Looks like Al Piner has got an early lead in the tri-cam-off! And I guess Honkin'Orange isn't your favorite. Unfortunately Fixe Hardware didn't have Papaya, Tangerine or Pumpkin in stock. But if Home Depot does, I could see a makeover. And I do agree, only stainless steel bolts. I've been monitoring those bolts and they are doing very well.

And Mr. Piner, I believe you are a step ahead. Until Tuesday this week we were going crazy to get the climbing proposal into the PIPC, because they said they'd look at it. And you know that's political speak for a lot of uncharted waters. What would you do if you were Jim Hall, Exec. Director of PIPC? That's the question, and for those of you who remember the huge Minnewaska Master Plan town hall meeting at SUNY NY - that didn't really result in much climbing being opened up - you know there is no clear path.

Proactive suggestions might make all the difference.

And, of course, tri-cam placement.

I'd love to check this crag if access issues get cleared up. I live at the Gunks, but work down at the state line, so visiting this area would be a nice break from the usual.

My .02 cents (for what it's worth - I've never been there)

1. Let's not forget how much "improvement" the Gunks had. Weissner originally refused to climb at the Trapps, said it was too dirty. Things done changed.

2. I used to live near a crag called Farley in Massachusetts. Back in the day, this was a rarely visited hinterland. Crappy access trail, lots of poison ivy, friable rock, terrible tr access. The crag got lots of development from dedicated locals: serious trail work, cliffside trundling, and many bolts. They also negotiated a major land purchase and secured parking. The lesson: these fellas took an underutilized climbing resource, developed it in a way that made sense for the area, and now it's arguably the best crag in Massachusetts.

There's a lot of rock in New York, enough to share. Like New England, we have a multiplicity of styles, ethics, and experiences to offer.

DL

A lot of these negative comments come from false truths and misguided individuals. It also seems the beer bouldering community among other groups is taking some heat in this blog. There is a lot of hatred out there so let me try and clarify some concerns. First off, no one cut down any living trees. A DEAD tree was assisted down (already falling down) to make a bridge accross the creek by certain individuals. This was done after the hurricane when the creek was extemely high and the old dead tree bridge was washed away. Obviously even the out of shape person can rock hop accross the creek now with little rainfall. The NY/NJ trail conference cuts and clears trees on established trails during maintenance so you shouldn't have a problem with a dead tree becoming a bridge. Second, any internet videos that may be out there are now listed as private. Third, beer bouldering respects nature just like the rest of you. There were dead branches and rocks cleared to provide safe landing areas. Again, no living trees were cut down. If you like to camp overnight chances are you have done the same thing when you move rocks to make a fire pit and burn branches to keep warm. Fourth, no one involved with beer bouldering has put a single bolt in any wall, they BOULDER if you can follow the title. Finally, we can point fingers at each other all day long about fell trees, guidebooks and internet postings but whats done is done. We must now work together to get this place opened to the public. Making childish, sarcastic comments about activity that may or may not have taken place is pointless...

Will they tow my car if i park there now..?

They can't tow your car unless signs are posted advising of such. Same goes for enforcing non posted laws for people climbing/hiking there. I can see warnings being given but I think law enforcement in the area has more important things to do than hunt down climbers/hikers in the woods.

They may not tow your car. but they escort you off the property and PIPC has confiscated gear from people at other areas who were trespassing. there is a relatively easy place to park and walk to the crag. that makes it lowkey.

Not saying do this... But if you are know that they have fined/taken gear other places. and if this hurts regaining access you kinda kicked yourself in the ass.

SNEAKY SNEAKY....

As for the beer boulders,etc.

I stated that advertising any bad image or possible lawsuit on private property (that isn't owned by someone you know) is not good for regaining access. They already dislike climbing on their property(Legal reasons). So how would mixing that with alcohol help establish they are away from lawsuit territory? I am pretty sure advertising drinking at crags isn't the way to help establish climbing as a upstanding group of society that deserve fair treatment. It just makes use look like a legal case that may cost their business money. (And people love making money).

My issue isn't with bolting/beer drinking/ gun shooting/ crag camping (when done responsibly). My issue is with the otherside and lawsuits in general. But sadly, we have to play nice to gain access/keep access in these areas.

Until signs are posted they can't confiscate anything. Not to mention anyone enforcing this has to know the property lines as well so good luck to them on that. As far as the videos are concerned, they don't depict anything that hasn't already been going on there for decades. I see more drug paraphernalia from non beer bouldering climbers than anything else up there. At least the beer boulderers pick up after themselves. The posing for pics/vids is with an empty can and is for show. Any beer consumption takes place after climbing and off the property in this particular area. Further, all their vids are private now. The objective now is to stay low key and let the coalition do their part. Again, pointing fingers at specific persons/groups and proclaiming misconduct on this blog doesn't help the situation either. I'm sure the PIPC is paying attention...

To the point of parking...
Fred is right that they can't tow/ticket unless it is posted "no parking." This only applies because the parking lot is on public land (owned by the Town of Ramapo) and they have no law against that. Also, remember that hiking is still perfectly legal on all the public property you could access from there (Town of Ramapo, PIPC and most of ConEd).

To the point of climbing...
PosiDave is right...any climbing there right now is NOT going to help any cause to open the area back up.

And Fred...you're unfortunately incorrect (well mostly...only because if ANYONE actually knew where the property lines were, and you weren't on their property, you could make that case but good luck to you on that one). You can't smoke pot and then put your hands up saying, "I didn't know I couldn't do that because there's no sign." If you're on someone's property (public or private...in this case public with stated regulations against climbing) and you're breaking their rules, they can confiscate gear, escort you off the property, give you a fine, and/or get local law enforcement involved...whether its posted or not.

The reality is that the local cops probably don't know and don't care about PIPC regulations. And PIPC is too understaffed and has bigger fish to fry (don't speed through Harriman), to go all the way around to that parking lot to enforce anything. But the truth of the matter is that they could...and again...it doesn't help any access support to do it.

So go hike up their all you want. Check shit out. But go climb somewhere else for the time being, preferably with legal access (or less in the limelight...not that I'm condoning climbing in illegal spots for the lawyers out there).
-gabe

gmiani, not saying to go climb out there now. I'm just making a point that if signs aren't posted, they would not confiscate gear on a first offense if you were not aware of the local laws. Repeat offenders obviously are a different matter. As far as pot or alcohol goes, obviously you can get busted for that anywhere in a local park. As far as the property lines go, there are different jurisdictions in which to prosecute so that's why I said "good luck with that", referring to law enforcement's willingness to sort that out for a minor trespassing/climbing violation. Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill and scare everyone. Use common sense and everyone will be fine...

this is a true local talking...but if you guys knew who was riding the atv's up there, you'd know you are pretty much guaranteed to never run into any pigs in those woods EVER. The cops up there want NOTHING to do with any isolated encounters in any desolate areas. I for one could care less what happens...if anything this 'ban' will keep all the limpwristed jerseyites away while the locals continue to crush new contrived eliminates.....anyhoo, not to burst anyones bubble but we're talking about a place that is roughly 95% choss...i mean come on...ive lost count of how many holds ive seen people snap off at that place....theres a reason most of the cairns are chalky...not to mention its got an unbelievable snake population...seriously some big suckers up there

And whats a pad person? Someone that owns a pad and climbs harder than v0?

Guilty!!

Let's hope by the end of the coming season, this might just all blow over.

It's a fact that the heroic Palisades Park Police around Harriman, generally, will only leave their cars for doughnuts. They have plenty to do enforcing traffic laws along the Palisades Parkway.

this really would blow over if you'd just let it go

I hope so, I really hope so.