Nomics Or Fusions?

Keenan Waeschle wrote:my vipers with laser picks can be a fucking bitch to clean, like moving up and spending 20-30 seconds to physically rip them out of the ice, gripping the head and pulling kinda upward and back. I'm scared that I'll yank on it so hard it'll dislodge the tool I have in above but then that tool has the same problem. I'm thinking about upgrading to nomics but I can decide if I should keep the vipers, anyone care to comment on the merits of keeping a tool like the vipers? I want to have something I can take to alaska and (when I pony up the cash and time) patagonia. is the spike that important or should I just say fuckit and get rid of the orange tools? I've only started ice climbing this year and I'm just getting into mixed. doing stuff up to M6 on my current tools, you think I should learn to climb mixed on vipers so when I buy nomics I'll crush or just start climbing with the more mixed oriented tools now? slight thread drift but I think the point of nomics vs fusions has been discussed thoroughly. thanks guys

Try pushing IN on the shaft holding the grip, then lift up, most folks don't change grips as you lose a lot of leverage and time; as for the rest, I don't know where to start.

These are all awesome tools. But the Fusion needs some love here... it's one of the best performing tools in it's own realm. It just depends on what you are looking to climb.

I agree with Jeff, the Fusions excel in the hard drytooling and mixed arena.

As to the difficulty when cleaning the tool from the ice...
Any of these tools can be over driven in some ice conditions to where they will be difficult to remove.

If you want picks easier to remove just file down all the teeth. Seriously though, it takes being dialed into your pick and your tool, as well as the ice to know what is an adequate placement. Experienced ice climbers usually tune their picks to their own tastes.

Climbing steep ice only all day with Fusions will certainly be more taxing than a Cobra or a Nomic. Again, Fusion is more of a specialist for dry tooling and hard mixed. Even with the same Lazer pick, a Cobra is better for pure ice than the Fusion. Put a Titan on the both, Fusion is going to rule over the Cobra on steep dry tooling/mixed. The tool and pick of choice in the end may simply depend on the conditions and the climb.

For me I'll chose a Cobra for alpine and a lot of ice. For ice with some mixed, Nomic. For more mixed or strictly dry tooling, Fusion.

If you have to pick one tool to go with and own you just have to evaluate what type of climbing you want to focus on. You really can't go wrong with any of the tools discussed in this thread.

It would be hard to take one tool, one pick, and excel across all the disciplines when it comes to ice and mixed climbing. Of course as said many times before, in the end it all comes down to the skills and strengths of the climber wielding the tools.

"You really can't go wrong with any of the tools discussed in this thread."

Agreed unless of course you don't have the expeience to make a good choice.

Fusion II is a good choice for the expert dry tooler or wanta be dry tooler. But it will climb ice as well.

The Cobra, Quark, Viper all decent all around tools for anything.

The Nomic is one of the easiest tools for anyone to climb with, on any terrain including dry tooling. new picks make it even better at dry tooling...not better on pure ice. Fuson looks a lot like it...but the Fusion isn't a duplicate. They climb differently.

Petzl has better picks...well until recently anyway but they don't break and just as important, easy in and out.

Everything listed is better than tools just a few generations back (5 to 10 years in tool time).

Most of the hard ice and a good bit of hard mixed was climbed with some pretty funky tools. None of the ones listed here will stop you on any route you are capable of. One or two of them will just make some routes easier. If you don't know the differenece don't worry about it. Buy what ever you can afford and just go climbing.

Keenan Waeschle wrote:my vipers with laser picks can be a fucking bitch to clean,

It's all technique. The top of the pick is sharp to aid in removal - when you "pump-handle" the tool it cuts into the ice above the placement, providing room for the pick to come out.

1) Don't blast them in. You don't need half a pick penetration to pull up on. Easy does it, especially with Lasers. Your arms will thank you at the end of the day, as well.

2) When you commit your weight to your upper tool (straight-armed), pull out on the handle of your lower tool, freeing the pick. You have a lot of leverage from this position, and it doesn't disturb the upper tool. Don't remove the lower tool from the ice - just loosen it.

3) When you move your feet up and stand up, pull your lower tool free. It should now come out easily.

Auto-X Fil wrote: It's all technique. The top of the pick is sharp to aid in removal - when you "pump-handle" the tool it cuts into the ice above the placement, providing room for the pick to come out. 1) Don't blast them in. You don't need half a pick penetration to pull up on. Easy does it, especially with Lasers. Your arms will thank you at the end of the day, as well. 2) When you commit your weight to your upper tool (straight-armed), pull out on the handle of your lower tool, freeing the pick. You have a lot of leverage from this position, and it doesn't disturb the upper tool. Don't remove the lower tool from the ice - just loosen it. 3) When you move your feet up and stand up, pull your lower tool free. It should now come out easily.

Fact is your technique can be stone-solid and BD picks can still be a bitch to remove. Pick tuning isn't an option if you want to climb without feeling like you're pumping a bucket of water after every swing. Swing a pair of Nomics with cascade picks and then swing a pair of fusions with lasers and compare the pick extraction. It's not even close. Unfortunately Petzl regressed with their latest Ice picks for the new generation tools. Bring back the cascade Petzl!

Nomics

I'm a pussy and like to make sure my picks are bomber, even so, playing around on TR hooking stuff and doing light swings I've never had a tool pop out unexpectedly, so I think my technique is pretty good. I climb pretty fast too, don't like to spend a huge amount of time fucking around with my sticks on lead. Either way the few petzl tools I've used have cleaned no problem, another plus for the nomics. gonna keep my eyes open and see if I can score a deal.

I find in different ice conditions the cleanability of my tools varies drastically (no shit)

"It's all technique"

cough, cough, sputter and choke.....:)

It is some technique and a good bit tool design.

Thanks everybody for the advice. Looks like I'm going to go with the Nomics, now I just need to save up money.
Thanks,
Brooks

Hey guys... informative thread.

Dane, I've read your posts regarding the nomic and recent problems on your blog. I'm still wondering though, should I buy the nomics still, even with the pommel problems? What is the best solution here? I don't want to buy a set of tools that are going to shit themselves out on the climb, or be useless in a season or two.

Maybe I just misread or skimmed over the things I wanted to know in other posts.

Thanks

My suggestion is buy what you want and let Petzl sort it out (which they will) if they break. Nomic or Ergo in the hand is better than most everything else has been the general concensus I think.

There is still a problem on the pommels but the tools aren't likely to fail on a climb. That is how I am betting anyway.