Skinny ropes and Red Rocks multi-pitch

Did some climbing on solar slab this weekend and it made me wonder about skinnier ropes. We climbed with a 9.9 and a 10.2, both 60m. I wore the 10.2 on my back, including while leading p1 and p3 (stellar!). So I got to thinking I'd rather trail a second lead line like the sterling nano 9.2 and climb on a somewhat thin rope like the blue water dominator 9.4. My reasons are i own 3 70's and am not interested in carrying extra rope around. If I can climb and rap w a single 70 or walk off I will. But for long routes like Johnny Vegas, solar slab, crimson c, etc, I believe I want 2 60's that are very light but still just fine as singles. I am limited in that there is no way my wife will go if I am carrying anything smaller than 9, plus I want to be able to lead back up to a stuck rope on something thicker than dental floss. My question is this: does anyone think the 9.4 & 9.2 setup is a good idea or a bad one? Interested in your thoughts on best diameter assuming they both must be single lead lines above 9mm. Specifically I'm worried because in Supertopos Greg Barnes says skinny ropes get stuck more at red rocks due to all the edges. Do you agree? What is the skinniest lead line you like for Red Rocks if you know you are not walking off and you gotta do double rope rappels?

Skinny's get blown easily into places you don't want them to be. They can also get wrapped around horns and things easier. You should really consider a half rope or even smaller for a tag line. Two lead lines is not necessary, just climb on doubles. Walking off is definitely the way to go in Vegas, but not always an option. Consider the metolius 7.8, or just standard 7mm cord. The 7mm cord can even be backpacked. Just know how to tie the ropes together and that the skinny side should always be through the anchor to make for easier pulling. I regularly carry the 9.5 mammut with the 7.8 metolius. If the 7.8 or 7mm cord doesn't make you happy go with a slightly larger half rope like an 8 or 8.5. Either way, two lead lines is slow and heavy for big multi. You need to explain to your wife that half ropes are fine and that most people do not climb on two single lead lines. Half ropes can catch lead falls and definitely catch falls from a follower. Read some literature on rope ratings for half ropes.

I always climb w/ a single lead line and backpack coil or trial a 8mm static tag line for multipitch in RR. Works well, and I already had the tag line for aid. It's barely noticeable in a backpack coil, and fine as well when actually tagged up.

Edit: I usually coil the ropes and rap with them coiled saddlebag style in my lap, especially on windy days. The extra few minutes is well worth avoiding a stuck rope (speaking from experience!).

Red Rock NCA vs anywhere else or the kind of rock, sandstone, limestone and/or granite really does not have any impact on the system you chose for longer rock routes. If the route calls for double rope raps and ignorance (lack of education/experience) by you and/or your wife as to the benefits of double rope systems stands in the way, I really don't have much to add. Carry the extra weight, or piss your wife off and rap on a skinny tag line. If you ever get into committing true alpine routes, you will not have a choice but to use doubles....for weight, efficiency and safety. Good Luck.

If you choose two drastically different sized ropes a good rap knot would be a figure-8 on a bite on the end of one rope. Then do a figure-8 follow-through on the other rope's end through the loop formed by the first figure-8 on a bite. This should have two interlocking loops with figure-8's. No chance for the skinny to slip through the knot. Always pull the fat rope and rap on the skinny.

I always lead on my 9.9 and tag my nano 9.2. the difference in diameter has never effected rappelling or pulling the ropes.

Greg G wrote:I always lead on my 9.9 and tag my nano 9.2. the difference in diameter has never effected rappelling or pulling the ropes.

That is not a big difference in size to affect rappelling or pulling. Anything in the 9-10mm range paired with something in the 7mm range, and maybe some small 8's. You can get rope creep and knot slippage.

TomCaldwell wrote:Always pull the fat rope and rap on the skinny.

I strongly disagree with the "always" part of this.
It is much easier to pull a fat rope then a skinny rope. If there is zero concern about a rope getting stuck then do this.

But if your concern is a rope getting stuck then you should set it up to pull the skinny rope.

Basically you will pull the skinny rope and have it completely in your hands before the fat rope starts screaming down the face.

The fat rope is much less likely to get caught on something as it falls down to you.

I've had to cut a skinny tag line in half when it got hopelessly caught above me when pulling the fat line.

andrewc wrote: I strongly disagree with the "always" part of this. It is much easier to pull a fat rope then a skinny rope. If there is zero concern about a rope getting stuck then do this. But if your concern is a rope getting stuck then you should set it up to pull the skinny rope. Basically you will pull the skinny rope and have it completely in your hands before the fat rope starts screaming down the face. The fat rope is much less likely to get caught on something as it falls down to you. I've had to cut a skinny tag line in half when it got hopelessly caught above me when pulling the fat line.

I think you are confused. What I am saying is you should pull on the fat rope to get the skinny back. The skinny rope should be through the anchors. Yes, if you try pulling on the skinny rope you will just get rope stretch and the fat rope will laugh at you and not move. Yes always. This only refers to ropes of very different sized diameter. Learn a 3:1 or 5:1 pulley system to avoid cutting your rope in the future.

I think a pair of 60m 8.5's and half-rope technique makes far more sense than a fatter rope and a tag line. You get 60m raps, a single-rope 120m rap to the ground in an emergency, the knowledge that both strands of a double rope system have never been cut in the field, and all the advantages of double-rope technique. Although the margins are not always significant, everything about it is safer than a single rope, not sketchier. And if you are going to carry something as big as an 8.5 for a tag line, than having two 8.5's save weight as well.

I have hung a rappel in RR with this rig, but folks hang rappels in RR all the time with all kinds of ropes. You're in a better situation, if you do hang a rap, than you'd be in with a tag line, and you're in a better situation if rock fall or some unexpected abrasion damages a rope. (By the way, if skinny ropes are more prone to hanging, which is a bit of received wisdom I'm not sure I believe, than tag lines would be the most prone to hanging of all.)

TomCaldwell wrote:If you choose two drastically different sized ropes a good rap knot would be a figure-8 on a bite on the end of one rope. Then do a figure-8 follow-through on the other rope's end through the loop formed by the first figure-8 on a bite. This should have two interlocking loops with figure-8's. No chance for the skinny to slip through the knot. Always pull the fat rope and rap on the skinny.

Not trying to start a fight, but regardless of the rope diameter, this sounds like a snag-fest waiting to happen. I guess you can count me among the group that simply doesn't see the advantage vs. risk benefit over just climbing on a pair of half-ropes.

TomCaldwell wrote: I think you are confused. What I am saying is you should pull on the fat rope to get the skinny back. The skinny rope should be through the anchors. Yes, if you try pulling on the skinny rope you will just get rope stretch and the fat rope will laugh at you and not move. Yes always. This only refers to ropes of very different sized diameter. Learn a 3:1 or 5:1 pulley system to avoid cutting your rope in the future.

No I understand. I just disagree. If you don't feel that there are many flakes or bushes for a rope to get caught on, then of course pull the fat line.

I do agree that it is harder to pull a skinny line. But the first person down should give it a test pull to make sure the lines are moving before the second person comes down.

A 5:1 pulley system would have not freed a line that horribly spagettied itself all over a bushy tree.

I too cannot see why you wouldn't want to climb on 8.5mm doubles instead. Vastly superior, more versatile, and safer. And no, it's not hard to belay on doubles. Might take you a day to get used to it.
And sure, it is true that skinny ropes have more of a tendency to get hung than fat ones, but the difference is probably not that great. It's all about being careful when/how you pull.

Lucie and I have done hundreds of raps at RR over many years (always on doubles) and have hung our ropes exactly once. And even that was probably because there were other people next to me so I was chatting instead of paying attention while pulling.

Thanks for all the feedback! Great stuff. What I'm hearing is that 9.4 is just fine to lead on, and specifically not too skinny to worry about a significantly increased risk of stuck rope, even at RR. That much we all agree on, yes?

As for the tag line, sadly we cannot all agree, though the dental floss/shoe string crowd is strong and vocal. All I take from that is now there is another reason I don't alpine climb, given that apparently I'd be rapping on a sub 8mm line, probably off a buried stuff sack filled with snow. No thanks.

Well you actually got that last part wrong. You don't alpine climb because you don't understand the basics yet. Leading on two 8.0 to 8.5 double ropes is actually safer than a single for a multitude of reasons that it is best to learn on your own or get instruction for (vs internet forums) if and/or when you pursue bigger and harder routes than Solar Slab in more pristine environs where weight for the approach and the climb is counted in grams.

I've had up to 6 people bounce-testing a buried Snickers before it failed - a stuffsack full of snow is bomber. Like they say, don't knock it 'til you've tried it.

I'd probably use half ropes if I had two 8mil dynamic lines around. My usual setup involves a burly lead line or two and a tag line when doing aid, or a single light 70m for doing single or multipitch. It's more reasonable to use ropes that I already have.

In your situation, I'm assuming that you already have a satisfactory lead rope. Add a 60m 8 mil static line for less than $100, or two 8mil dynamic lines for much more, either will work if you know what you're doing and dial your systems. True, you shouldn't lead on the static line, and there are limitations to using one, but that's something you need to decide for yourself. For me, I just use what I've got and do it effectively. (And accept the risks).

Yo,Killis, I got no come back just a big thanks for the bolt work on crimson chrysalis. Nice!

Since no one has addressed it:

The difficulty of pulling the skinny rope versus the fat rope, or the likelihood of one or the other getting snagged as it falls, is not the primary issue.

If you set things up to pull the fat rope, then the knot is on that side of the anchor (the fat rope side). As you rappel, the device grips more on the fat rope and you can actually pull the knot down as you rappel, causing the ends to become uneven. This can lead to rappelling off the end of the skinny rope, which equals disaster.

I climb pretty often on a single 9mm lead line and my wife backpacks a 6mm cord for rappels. On occasion, I've rappelled with the knot on the fat side, knowing that the above can occur. My wife has seen the knot move as much as 30 ft while I rappelled the pitch.

One solution to the potential for pulling down the fatter rope with you as you rappel is, for the first person down, to clove hitch a quick draw between the strands underneath the rappel anchor. The draw will keep the ropes even.

The second person down had better remember to remove the draw though! A partial solution to that problem is to place the draw low so that, if forgotten, the second will have to rappel through it.

A method that solves the problem of the second person forgetting the draw is to install the second person's rap device below the anchor and, for good measure, tie it off as for a belay escape. This will also keep the ropes even for the first person, and the second person just clips into their device and releases the mule hitch in order to get going. This method has the drawback that the first person down can't test the rappel pull unless the second removes their device from the rope, which is a loss of efficiency.

When the second rappels, the first person down ties off the skinny rope so it can't slide around the rap anchor anchor.

I still like half ropes much better, but preferences differ.

Tom Fralich wrote:Since no one has addressed it: The difficulty of pulling the skinny rope versus the fat rope, or the likelihood of one or the other getting snagged as it falls, is not the primary issue. If you set things up to pull the fat rope, then the knot is on that side of the anchor (the fat rope side). As you rappel, the device grips more on the fat rope and you can actually pull the knot down as you rappel, causing the ends to become uneven. This can lead to rappelling off the end of the skinny rope, which equals disaster. I climb pretty often on a single 9mm lead line and my wife backpacks a 6mm cord for rappels. On occasion, I've rappelled with the knot on the fat side, knowing that the above can occur. My wife has seen the knot move as much as 30 ft while I rappelled the pitch.

+1 Was just waiting for someone to point this out...