Winslow Wall Approach

David Sahalie wrote: A chain ladder makes a lot of sense.

Like I mentioned earlier; I'm not familiar with these. Can someone answer if this will scare the rock? I'm imagining a bunch of chain links bashing against the wall as people use a chain ladder. Is that the case or are the chains somehow secured away from the wall so that they don't scare the wall?

Seriously ?

Why are we always looking to make things easy and areas more accessible. Is this an outgrowth of the gym mentality or a consequence of the increase in climbers that we need to fix ladders to get into steep canyons?

This is a beautiful canyon, it's not made that way by man's presence or his/her footprints. It's made that way by the nature of its existence. If you're not willing to put out minor (very minor in my recollections) efforts to enjoy it, then perhaps there are other areas that better suit the mentality of ease of access.

I shudder to think about coming to what I recall as beautiful, unique canyon with a nice wilderness feel and finding a rebar ladder.

Raise paradise and put up a parking lot...

David Sahalie wrote: Zeke, none of this was directed at you personally. Feeling a little sensitive today or looking to start a troll out of a civil discussion? A chain ladder makes a lot of sense.

Neither one of your options, actually. I said what I meant: it didn't seem like anybody is being a jerk ;). I realized the comments weren't directed at me (just as my comments weren't directed at you), I was just doing a little perception checking. I fail to see how my staying on topic concerning a place I've actually been to (you admittedly haven't), while failing to impugn the character of anybody here is trolling? Seriously, no ill will here. Look at my goofy profile pic if you have doubts. Thumbs up, dude!

I just don't see how a chain ladder makes much more sense and how much faster it will be.

The way I see it, the area is currently safely accessible to climbers (or other similarly rope savvy people). There are places I can't get to because I don't have the skill level, ability, or plain chutzpah. I don't mandate that somebody install a ladder, I accept my limitations. In fact, on my summer roadtrip I didn't go there because I had my dog with me and didn't want to repeat a tragedy or leave the dumb mutt chained up top. I love Winslow climbing, but a man's gotta know his limitations.

Seems like this is leaning more towards the remove the fixed lines, don't leave any up and let everyone figure it out for themselves. I believe safety of the fixed lines was the intent of the original post so if there were no fixed lines we wouldn't have to worry about the integrity of them. BTW welcome to the whipping floor Joe, at least I have some good company now.

Paul Davidson wrote:This is a beautiful canyon, it's not made that way by man's presence or his/her footprints. It's made that way by the nature of its existence. If you're not willing to put out minor (very minor in my recollections) efforts to enjoy it, then perhaps there are other areas that better suit the mentality of ease of access.

+1

I vote 'no' on permanently fixed access and also feel The Pond-QC ladder was unnecessary. Better to have laddered up the approach to Atlantis -ha(joking)

Paul Davidson wrote:Seriously ? Why are we always looking to make things easy and areas more accessible. Is this an outgrowth of the gym mentality or a consequence of the increase in climbers that we need to fix ladders to get into steep canyons? This is a beautiful canyon, it's not made that way by man's presence or his/her footprints. It's made that way by the nature of its existence. If you're not willing to put out minor (very minor in my recollections) efforts to enjoy it, then perhaps there are other areas that better suit the mentality of ease of access. I shudder to think about coming to what I recall as beautiful, unique canyon with a nice wilderness feel and finding a rebar ladder. Raise paradise and put up a parking lot...

+1

Also consider that a dumbed down approach likely correlates to dumbed down climbers or in other words, it doesn't make it safer when you consider increased traffic with fewer skills.

First I would like to cast my vote on the NO side. WW is a beautiful and fragile environment, I would hate to see a big ladder of any kind. Also as others have stated the easier access would bring more people to the area and considering the fragile environment I think the fewer people the better. In fact there has already been some incredibly inconsiderate activity in the canyon such and the cutting down of vegetation, I would hate to see more of this.

I think the current rope system works well, and with the proper acceding gear its not hard at all to get out, just come prepared [as you should on any climbing adventure]. As for the safety of the fixed ropes, people should treat them as any fixed gear, inspect and decide if you feel its safe. If you don't want to rap on the fixed lines, bring your own line to rap in with. Also in order to make the ropes late as long as possible please make sure that the fire hose protector is slid down the rope to protect it from the edge.

Please, no rope or chain ladder. The anchor for people to rap/ascend is all that is needed here. Let folks supply their own rope, or at most have a fixed rope that is monitored closely.

I'm with the NO... More crowds almost ALWAYS = destruction.
Dumbing down the environment to accommodate less skilled is just
asking for disaster. Set your line, use it and
take it with you when your done. Right?

No.

Hello all,

I don't really want to read 'every' post so I don't know if anything has been decided.

I do know I have a few 60m static ropes hiding out in my cabinet and I do not have a use for them. If someone would like to made a rope ladder our of them for the WW, I'm happy to give them up for the cause.

My vote is: To have that part as Natural as possible, if feasible, yet safe for all.

Let me know

Linda

My vote is no.

I will finally weight in on this. I consider myself a past NorAZ "local" and have been to the WW before and after the "new" climbs came in.

If you leave your cams behind you are missing out on some good climbs.

Back to the "entrance" to the canyon.

I would like to say keep good hardware and no fixed ropes.

Two stations double anchor stations would be nice. Hardware from Fixe. Glue-ins or some nice stuff.

Now take the occasional BUSY DAY. 30 people. Everyone trying to leave at the same time is a traffic jam.

But with that many parties in the canyon, placing your own rope at the entrance would leave 5 different ropes.

If you gamble and poach a rope you could be climbing out.

I vote NO, I know Rodman (one of the developers) personally and I doubt he would be about a ladder. He put those anchors in for a reason, not a ugly ladder. I cant speak for him but if you cant get in and out of the canyon safely you probably shouldn’t be there. Lets keep the crowds out of this beautiful place. Maybe a good alternative would be to eliminate the ropes all together and make it so you have to bring your own static line if you want to rap in and jug out. The solo out is VERY easy. progress your mentality and just climb out. theres also a sport climb leading to the fixed line. so the safety is there in every way. Please, if you want to put ladders somewhere go find a canyon and develop it yourself, then you can make the decisions.

No, please. No elitist or "local" motivations here, but having seen these type of "ladders" elsewhere I think it would be a shame to add them to the Winslow Wall. To the original poster thanks for putting this out to the community, I hope you are willing to follow the consensus. However if people are willing to "donate" time and money I know some folks who could use contributions to their "new routing" funds!

It has nothing to do with CLimber Superiority.
But if you have no business in an area like this due to
lack of experience... then dont simplify it so that
access is not longer a prevent.
Next thing you know - Theyre will be a Meet Up Group there...
and you DONT want that. Trust me.

"..would you consider another option such as a chain or rope ladder if done properly?"....

Rap Bolts, climb out. We said that (we did not say ladder) !

Steve

That looks shitty! I'm not from the area but I'm thinking that even the people saying "no" to the via ferreta type rungs would use them when no one is looking!

Owen Darrow wrote:That looks shitty! I'm not from the area but I'm thinking that even the people saying "no" to the via ferreta type rungs would use them when no one is looking!

I'm sure they would use them. Most likely they would use them for concrete work in their backyard after they were removed...

No. And my dog used to do the scramble at the pond both up and down with only a little boost.
Easy access isn't a climbing area requirement. It is a gym requirement. People were climbing there for many years before the new bolted routes were established. The land out in that area is a combination of Indian land holdings (Hopi I think) and public. You drive across some of the Indian land going in, but I am not sure where the climbing is officially located. They put in a registration box across the highway a few years ago after flying over and seeing a lot of cars parked above the wall.