Do you Check the Top?

Rock, paper, scissor......always fair!

Hahaha! Thanks for all the responses. It always feels good to know you are in the right on an arguement.

I think this guy thought he could just get away with it since we were at more of a beginner crag. He figured he could pull out the "ethics" word I and would just I stand down. I definitely called him out in front of his clients. As much as I could, because I was approacing the anchors, and told him that checking the top of a crag pre-climb is completely ridiculous. I'm not new to climbing, so I didn't let him try and bully me off the route.

Checking the top of a sport crag kind of defeats the purpose of climbing doesn't it?

Francisco Di Poi wrote:Rock, paper, scissor......always fair!

Okay, but I'm going Rock.

Andrew, what crag were you at?

Evan Sanders wrote:Tell me why that's so wrong...

Because everyone thinks they're faster.

Etiquette is that lead climbers get priority over top ropers. Top ropers are definitely not faster than lead climbers.

--Marc

This incident occurred at Red Rocks in Draper, Utah.

This crag was developed for top site management and top rope teaching. There are bolts installed for personal anchors to set up top ropes on fixed anchors.

The group that we being lead by the AMGA Guide was a Single Pitch Instructor Course. The group had been at the crag since 8am being taught rock rescue techniques. Specifically, there were a top belay anchors set up on natural anchors and gear since around 10am.

However, there are many details being omitted in this incident:

The lead climber has been notified by the class above of their presence about 45 minutes before this specific lead. Specially, when their group had top roped the route to climber's left.

The rappel line for an assisted rappel/belay had been tossed down (with a vocal warning) before the climber decided to being the sport lead.

The lead climber is at fault here because he failed to see that two routes share the same anchor. He started on climber's left and the route move towards climber's right, where the anchors where and also where the class had their top anchor set up and belay stance.

The lead climber became aware that he was topping out at the class's anchor, he simple ignored the presence of a rope, the surrounding noise of a class, and pleaded ignorance.

None the less, the instructor shared his perception of the leader climbing at fault, and decided to deconstruct the gear anchor and yield to the lead climber and let him finish his route. Even though he was clearly at fault the guide decided to take the least confrontational method of action.

If the OP is going to come here to try to justify his attributions and might as well share the complete situation, not let his biases omit the details.

Marc H wrote: Because everyone thinks they're faster. Etiquette is that lead climbers get priority over top ropers. Top ropers are definitely not faster than lead climbers. --Marc

The first sentence is almost completely true. I think it depends on the scenario though. For example, my lead sport limit is high 11s/low 12s. If I'm on something around that level, unless I've worked it for a while, I'm going to be slower my first time on that route leading it then i would top roping it with a group of people that don't know how to lead, because I will fall, and probably often. So I guess I'll revise my statement and say I was half wrong IMO Marc. Top ropers can definitely be slower than leaders, but not always.

I guess I may be wrong in everyone else's eyes, but i just don't see why style of climbing dictates who has priority. I don't even top rope much, I just think it's courteous to let the faster party go first. But as stated by Marc, groups think they're the fastest all the time, so that would be hard to judge. I usually just defer unless it's blatantly obvious I'll be faster, like I have a group of 2 and they have a group of 5 or something.

You could have said that as long as we're making stuff up, you always heard the party setting up a top rope had to place a sign at the base of the climb first.

I mean, yeah, look up to see if there's a party, but beyond that...?

Jesus, is this really a worldy crisis? I mean, not to understate your tragedy here, but who the hell died?

Look im sorry because one climber got jealous and bitter that the other's petzl harness was more colorful than his, but can we discuss something better? Like..pop rocks, corey haim movies, or posh spice?

You guys need more drama in your life, try a girlfriend.

the who's faster argument sounds interesting in thoery, but in practice would be a complete mess. on a multipitch route, 1 party might be faster on pitch 3, the other party faster on pitch 4, etc due to individual strengths and weaknesses. also, at the base of a route, how are you going to determine who's faster? might as well just have a dance-off.

to the comment that the area was 'developed' for gangbanging the hell out of a TR under the sage wisdom oversite of a 'Single Pitch Instructor'... give me a break.

as for the comment about the lead climber being in the wrong for going to a shared anchor, if the 'guide' had a clue he would have known that he was hogging 2 routes unnecessarily, and would have come up with an alternative anchor to free up the other route.

Evan Sanders wrote:So I guess I'll revise my statement and say I was half wrong IMO Marc. Top ropers can definitely be slower than leaders, but not always.

In the time it takes your average party to set up, climb, and then breakdown a top rope, it could be led and followed two or three times but a similarly competent party. Part of the reason for that is that top ropers are generally newer climbers; experienced climbers don't top rope very often.

--Marc

Zeke wrote:You could have said that as long as we're making stuff up, you always heard the party setting up a top rope had to place a sign at the base of the climb first. I mean, yeah, look up to see if there's a party, but beyond that...?

I usually employ a bell helicopter for aerial reconnaisance. It's crucial to keeping the peace on the sport crag.

Marc H wrote:Part of the reason for that is that top ropers are generally newer climbers; experienced climbers don't top rope very often. --Marc

+1. I'll bow out of this one.

Okay, I'm checking out of this one now. I'm not sure how, but I'm pretty certain this photo is related to the problem. Discuss.

Evan Sanders wrote: +1. I'll bow out of this one.

f@%& that! i never pass up a free one!

Evan Sanders wrote: Yeah, and it's just an opinion of mine. Think I'm wrong, then change my mind with why you think I'm wrong, not by just calling my views absurd. If you arrive at the same time, the fastest party has priority. Tell me why that's so wrong, then I'll listen

If two parties arrive at the same time, Exactly, that really doesn't happen very often, I would just say which ever team is ready to go first is then first, But honestly, If I see someone racing me for something or being pushy about taking a route, I let them have it, Very rarely do I go in somewhere without a contingency plan. I like to take my time when I climb and because I do, I climb faster when I am relaxed.

There is no way to know which methods are fastest, If I told you I was gonna do a Sport route on gear would you just assume that you could climb it faster because your clipping bolts. Or is free climbing faster then aid climbing?

If your team is first and ready to go, have at it, no matter what the method. Early bird gets the worm and if you go in a long distance, It's your problem if someone else is on the route and you don't want to be under them, no matter how fast they are or whatever their methods, you better have a contingency plan.

It looks like there are two issues now going on in this thread, the OP's scenario, and Evan Sanders debate of right away based on your speed?

Seems we got the other half of a story though in regards to the OP.

As long as there are people above you, especially on the top of a cliff, why would you want to climb below anyone if you have a choice?

Apologies Parker, I didn't realize those routes shared anchors. That was my mistake. Up until then, we really didn't know you guys were up there.

My intention wasnt to start arguements, just to see if it was common practice to check the top of a crag before sport climbing.

Thanks Andrew, we had another opportunity to set up a hanging belay shortly after. Honestly, the development is odd there. There should be another set of anchors to just the left of those. Unfortunately, that boulder makes a great belay platform is actually freestanding... impossible for pro, kinda sketch.

If the top of a route is easily accessible, most likely there is activity there, especially if the crag is popular.

Parker H wrote: If the top of a route is easily accessible, most likely there is activity there, especially if the crag is popular.

is this a general statement? i can't really think of anywhere that i would say that i have found this to be true.

slim wrote: is this a general statement? i can't really think of anywhere that i would say that i have found this to be true.

In the Gunks near the carriage road, its not the truth, but pretty damn well close. I was on a X-rated climb on lead only to have a top roper through a rope down on me nearly wiping me off the wall. Got to the top, the guy's response was , "ah... thats a top rope problem, lot some=thing someone leads....."