Tipping point on booty ethics?

I keep all booty that I find. Then again, I don't expect anyone to contact me if I leave anything. It all goes around and evens out in the end.

Just know that the universe is efficient at maintaining balance. If you take some booty, you will probably know inside if it likely belongs to a nearby party. If you take a part in causing their suffering (loss of property), then you will suffer in an equivalent manner. If you inconvenience yourself in such a way as to balance out the suffering of said party due to the loss of their gear, then the universe will remain roughly in balance. If you go out of your way to return the gear, you will be rewarded.

There is no free lunch. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

In what sense is the word "dollar" used in that Massachusetts law? If it is an old law, one might reasonably argue that it must be inflation adjusted, or tied to a specific weight of precious metal.

My god man, what DID you do that five year old?!?

Joseph Stover wrote:Just know that the universe is efficient at maintaining balance. If you take some booty, you will probably know inside if it likely belongs to a nearby party. If you take a part in causing their suffering (loss of property), then you will suffer in an equivalent manner. If you inconvenience yourself in such a way as to balance out the suffering of said party due to the loss of their gear, then the universe will remain roughly in balance. If you go out of your way to return the gear, you will be rewarded. There is no free lunch. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

See my post. I do exactly that by keeping booty.

Eric D wrote: See my post. I do exactly that by keeping booty.

That's a good point too. But what you would effectively be doing is either (1) cancelling out your booty karma, or (2) gaining negative booty karma.

If you make an effort to get the booty back to the owners, then you either (1) gain positive booty karma or (2) keep the booty without any gain in negative karma. Of course, you have to do it as selflessly as possible, otherwise you'll be negating some of the positive effects outright.

Karma translates as "action". And so your actions dictate your karma. It may be karmically balancing to find gear for free in the wild, but from that point on, how you act dictates future reactions. The past has already been decided, but our choices create the future.

Yay for tying in religion! WOOHOO! What about those don't follow that belief system.

Hopefully "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a rule followed by everyone, religious or otherwise.

But, you probably were referring to karma.

It is not belief or religion. It is fact. rock climbing is religion. karma is law of universe. maybe many more births it take to see though.

look deep inside. you think it as law. maybe it is biology, maybe something else. but you believe it as real. you have to fight it to not believe it.

just like it is human nature to personify natural phenomena, so it is to see the world as karmic action and reaction. only by conditioning can we suppress our nature.

when you take booty, do you not at least think for a second that you should try to find owner? that is the tendency to know that what come around go around. you may choose to ignore, but you are aware of the thought.

Joseph Stover wrote:It is not belief or religion. It is fact. rock climbing is religion. karma is law of universe. maybe many more births it take to see though. look deep inside. you think it as law. maybe it is biology, maybe something else. but you believe it as real. you have to fight it to not believe it. just like it is human nature to personify natural phenomena, so it is to see the world as karmic action and reaction. only by conditioning can we suppress our nature. when you take booty, do you not at least think for a second that you should try to find owner? that is the tendency to know that what come around go around. you may choose to ignore, but you are aware of the thought.

Are you drunk? I see I'll have to be sensible and rational for the rest of the day now to balance out your hand waving mumbo jumbo.

when i learned to place gear, learning how to clean it was just as important. cams were a lot more expensive (relatively, considering inflation, etc) then. being able to extract the hardware was essential, otherwise it would be gone forever.

now, someone goes out and jams something in a crack, and spends more time on MP demanding it's return than they spent trying to get it out. just seems odd.

I do admit to being a bit trollish... but being serious, albeit using silly language.

To clarify my position, you find gear, it is your choice to keep it or return it. Upon returning gear, a fair price should be paid, however, whether by way of postage, food/drink, or whatever. Anything else is uncivilised.

Statutorily, there should be some limit or progression of monetary values and definitions as to what is deemed abandoned vs lost and how to proceed within each situation, imo.

Karma is simple probability. Nothing else.

slim wrote:now, someone goes out and jams something in a crack, and spends more time on MP demanding it's return than they spent trying to get it out. just seems odd.

And there you have it ladies and gentlemen. Slim has crystalized the issue perfectly. Thank you Slim.

David Appelhans wrote: Are you drunk? I see I'll have to be sensible and rational for the rest of the day now to balance out your hand waving mumbo jumbo.

hahahaha

Joseph Stover wrote: look deep inside. you think it as law. maybe it is biology, maybe something else.

.......like a Booty Clapper!?!?!
Sorry, had to do it. No booty thread is complete anymore without a booty clapper reference.

Glenn Schuler wrote: .......like a Booty Clapper!?!?! Sorry, had to do it. No booty thread is complete anymore without a booty clapper reference.

I was just going to say something about the Booty Clapper! Who can NOT think of that when speaking of booty? It can't be done.

Shawn Mitchell wrote:If you clean it, does decency require you to post up, or at least look to see if anyone else did, so you can can give it back?

It depends. Mostly on whether I want that gear or not...;). Really, you shouldn't expect anything you leave out back though. And, no, you aren't getting your lone nut back. Ever. No, you aren't getting your bail biner back. I'll think about your cam, depending on whether I have triples in that range or not.

Part of the game is you lose some gear. You retreat, you outfit some anchors, your follower sucks, whatever, that is the price of playing the game. The onus of gear retrieval is not on the bootier. I am not a gear retrieval service, so fuck right off or pay me more. That said, I've read recently about people having gear they left at the base of the climb to lighten the load bootied by others while they climbed the damn route! That's more than a bit different and it shows we shouldn't be rampant bootiers.

So, yeah, if you can do a good turn, do it. I know I have. I even had a guy who wanted to return some anchor material I'd left on a route. We went to the same gym and still we were somehow unable to connect so I just absolved him: it's just some damn quicklinks and webbing! If you left a lot gear, sure, start your internet whining. If I see a nut or quickdraw or the like on the boards though, just drink the beer and save the everlasting karmic friendship you are always offering and buy yourself a new one already you cheap bastard!

DannyUncanny wrote:I chopped an old nylon anchor off a very popular route last month. It was attached to a nut, a tricam, and a rusty piton. I kept the nut and tricam, and I packed the nylon out. There were decent bolted chains about 7 m away horizontally along a ramp, but they are easy to miss. I imagine that a lot of people have missed them and rapped off the anchor I chopped. I'm not a local and I probably won't ever be back again. Right choice?

Wrong choice.

Non-locals should not be chopping anchors. Especially on popular routes.

IMO.

Joseph Stover wrote: That's a good point too. But what you would effectively be doing is either (1) cancelling out your booty karma, or (2) gaining negative booty karma. If you make an effort to get the booty back to the owners, then you either (1) gain positive booty karma or (2) keep the booty without any gain in negative karma. Of course, you have to do it as selflessly as possible, otherwise you'll be negating some of the positive effects outright. Karma translates as "action". And so your actions dictate your karma. It may be karmically balancing to find gear for free in the wild, but from that point on, how you act dictates future reactions. The past has already been decided, but our choices create the future.

As OP, I'll take credit for prompting the first noted expression of game theory on MP.