Isn't top roping the same as sport climbing?

Personal attacks aside, I agree with the original post, at least in principle.

Sport climbing and top roping both focus on doing the hardest individual moves possible. With the exception of less-than-vertical routes, sport climbing should (read: well-maintained bolts, etc) be just as safe as top roping. Claiming that a slip on an overhanging sport route will result in a big whipper doesn't mean anything. It's a safe fall. Leading it is no more impressive than top roping it, unless you're really bad at clipping the draw. Safe is safe.

And many trad climbs are just as safe as sport climbs, given a reasonable amount of experience placing gear. Safe is still safe. I'll give more kudos to the sport climber/trad climber doing a wicked run-out slab than a bolted Red River Gorge climb or a Yosemite hand crack any day.

Oh, and just because you're scared (on a boulder, sport climb, trad climb, top rope) doesn't make the climb unsafe.

Thank you Tom. Although I would say taking the time to clip a bolt must take more energy than not.

My point is that sport climbing and TR are focused on the same attributes and the method of protection is secondary.

My troll point is that if sport and TR are different and that the effort involved to clip the bolt is important to sending the climb then way are people purposely making routes easier by adding perma-draws?

If perma-draws are in fact for safety and in fact improve safety by all means put them on as long as the park service or governing entity says they can be there. That's the point of bolting isn't it? To make it safe to climb it? So if it's bolted but still not safe and adding PD's will make it safe then do it. But simply adding PD's for convenience I cannot condone.

Yea, there's been alot of personal attacks here and the PD thread. First people say I'm not allowed to have an opinion because I lack experience without even knowing my experience, then they claim to have superior opinions because they climb harder than me, and I'm a "psychopath" because I don't care what a bunch of people I don't know think about me on the internet. So pathetic that people resort to personal attacks when they can not form a simple opinion positive or negative to the topic at hand.

Trad Ninja wrote:Isn't top roping the same as sport climbing?

This topic title is misleading. The topic sets people up to be annoyed with you for your claim that "TR = Sport" which we all know isn't true.

However, in your initial post you don't really talk about that, you talk about the mentality of sport climbers and top ropers (if there is such a thing as an exclusive top roper, haha). A climber's mentality and the different mechanics of climbing disciplines are two very different subjects.

Don't be so surprised that people react when you mislead them in this way :)

Taylor Ogden wrote: This topic title is misleading. The topic sets people up to be annoyed with you for your claim that "TR = Sport" which we all know isn't true. However, in your initial post you don't really talk about that, you talk about the mentality of sport climbers and top ropers (if there is such a thing as an exclusive top roper, haha). A climber's mentality and the different mechanics of climbing disciplines are two very different subjects. Don't be so surprised that people react when you mislead them in this way :)

The misleading was on purpose. I intended and welcomed the reaction they gave. Of course big headed sport climbs would be offended that I compared them to top ropers. But, in all seriousness I don't find the two styles all that different. That's what this thread is about. You don't agree? Fine, then say that and tell me why you think so instead of the personal attacks.

caughtinside wrote:Oh dear, the top rope ninja doesn't condone perma draws. The whole 'discussion' is just silly anyway. The fact is, is that fixed gear will always be a local issue, despite your right to have an opinion from hundreds or thousands of miles away. The locals are the 'governing body' whether you like that or not, with varying degrees of organization. On a serious note about the convenience thing... it's been said that one reason gyms have perma draws is for speed of getting people through routes. Well, look at popular overhanging sport crags, you have the same issue. Do you want to sit around in the Madness cave for and extra 20 minutes while your next route gets the draws pulled? And areas where project draws are part of the game. If you can leave your draws up for a week or a month, on a popular route the draws will basically be up all season and maybe all off season if no one gets back to clean them. At this point it is actually safer to have something fully and permanently fixed with quicklinks, chain and steel. Regarding the dangerous state of worn carabiners, most climbers who are climbing steep routes with fixed or project draws should have enough experience to judge the condition of fixed gear. It's basically the same as rapping off tat. And it isn't that hard or costly to swap out one or two worn biners.

You're out of your element.

Trad Ninja wrote: The misleading was on purpose. I intended and welcomed the reaction they gave. Of course big headed sport climbs would be offended that I compared them to top ropers. But, in all seriousness I don't find the two styles all that different. That's what this thread is about. You don't agree? Fine, then say that and tell me why you think so instead of the personal attacks.

Personal attacks? I don't feel that I was attacking you in any way. I even used a smiley face :)

As far as the styles of climbing being different (keep in mind that they are both climbing, so there will be some inherent similarities...):

Sport Climbing:

- Tie in to rope while rope is still on the ground
- Climb up with rope hanging below you
- Belayer most both take in and pay out slack
- Bring your own protection in the form of quickdraws
- Use quickdraws to clip in to pre-drilled bolts
- Potential falls of anywhere from a few feet to 50+ feet
- Allows a climber to safely climb seriously overhanging terrain

Top Roping:

- Rope is already attached at the top of the climb
- Once the climber is tied in they may as well forget about the rope (assuming they have a competent belayer)
- Potential falls of a few inches to half a foot
- Cannot climb overhanging terrain

I'm sure you could get more technical if you really wanted to, but these are the immediate differences that come to mind. Care to disagree? :)

Taylor Ogden wrote: Personal attacks? I don't feel that I was attacking you in any way. I even used a smiley face :) As far as the styles of climbing being different (keep in mind that they are both climbing, so there will be some inherent similarities...): Sport Climbing: - Tie in to rope while rope is still on the ground - Climb up with rope hanging below you - Belayer most both take in and pay out slack - Bring your own protection in the form of quickdraws - Use quickdraws to clip in to pre-drilled bolts - Potential falls of anywhere from a few feet to 50+ feet - Allows a climber to safely climb seriously overhanging terrain Top Roping: - Rope is already attached at the top of the climb - Once the climber is tied in they may as well forget about the rope (assuming they have a competent belayer) - Potential falls of a few inches to half a foot - Cannot climb overhanging terrain I'm sure you could get more technical if you really wanted to, but these are the immediate differences that come to mind. Care to disagree? :)

I didn't consider you one of the personal attackers I was pointing out the others.

You describe the technical differences between sport and TR but those differences are clear. What I'm talking about is the attitude of the climber mainly, "I want to do the hardest possible moves" type thing. Top ropers are made fun of yet they are also trying to achieve hard moves in a safe way just like sport climbers.

My other reason for the OP is to show that if sport climbing is not just about the hard moves like TR but also about the lead then perma-draws for easier clips is contrary to that goal.

Ryan Kelly wrote: You're out of your element.

Wait. You lead 5.3 inside, (what gym sets leadable 5.3s?)and this guy is "out of (his) element"? Does that statement have any kind of meaning or validity?

Seriously; there's a great little book by a Professor of Philosophy named Harry Frankfurt-On Bullshit. He makes a great argument that people can become habituated to spewing bs. They don't even care if it's true or not, they just feel compelled to make comments or give answers, regardless of any kind of truth or meaning. The artifice of your cutesy little profile page makes me think you don't give a rat's ass about anything but snark. If your reliance on bullshit overwhelms your ability to be honest, why waste electrons posting? Won't we have to assume that your post is Bullshit? I can understand why a lot of people don't bother to let the rest of us know who they are, but this ultracool posing is just kind of (dare I write it?) Wanker.There, I said it. And I feel better now.

Trad Ninja wrote: I didn't consider you one of the personal attackers I was pointing out the others. You describe the technical differences between sport and TR but those differences are clear. What I'm talking about is the attitude of the climber mainly, "I want to do the hardest possible moves" type thing. Top ropers are made fun of yet they are also trying to achieve hard moves in a safe way just like sport climbers. My other reason for the OP is to show that if sport climbing is not just about the hard moves like TR but also about the lead then perma-draws for easier clips is contrary to that goal.

If we are talking about climbers with a "I wanna do the hardest moves" mentality, I think that award goes to boulderers.

But in the context of Sport and TR I can see why you would want to lump them together. After all, it's not uncommon for someone to TR a tough sport route until they get the moves wired, right?

I think the main difference is not in the mentality of the climber, but rather the added danger that sport gives. It's potentially more dangerous, and therefore more thrilling, to lead a climb rather than top rope it. I think it's the same reason a lot of people get their rocks off leading trad. It's a rush.

Doug Hemken wrote:Sport climber to trad climber: "it's about the moves". Sport climber to top-roper: "it's about clips and commitment." Sport climber to boulderer: "John Gill was a wanna-be." Top-roping gets universally slammed because of its strong association with beginners. Top-roping is the gateway drug for everything else.

Now that made me laugh; until I realized someone may have actually said that, which made me sad. Now I'm sad, Doug, and it's your fault.

Joe Huggins wrote: ... Harry Frankfurt-On Bullshit....

Good read. Just don't watch a GOP presidential debate right after you finish. I made that mistake and my balance is still a little off.

Carl Sherven wrote: Now I'm sad, Doug, and it's your fault.

Yeesh! Is there no end to the personal attacks and name-calling on the interwebs?

Joe Huggins wrote: Wait. You lead 5.3 inside, (what gym sets leadable 5.3s?)and this guy is "out of (his) element"? Does that statement have any kind of meaning or validity? Seriously; there's a great little book by a Professor of Philosophy named Harry Frankfurt-On Bullshit. He makes a great argument that people can become habituated to spewing bs. They don't even care if it's true or not, they just feel compelled to make comments or give answers, regardless of any kind of truth or meaning. The artifice of your cutesy little profile page makes me think you don't give a rat's ass about anything but snark. If your reliance on bullshit overwhelms your ability to be honest, why waste electrons posting? Won't we have to assume that your post is Bullshit? I can understand why a lot of people don't bother to let the rest of us know who they are, but this ultracool posing is just kind of (dare I write it?) Wanker.There, I said it. And I feel better now.

Joe, I have to leap to R Kelly's defense. He posts some of the driest, funniest shite on MP. Once in a while when (I think) he's serious, it's apparent. Other than that, it's for laughs. Like the comment you bit on. But he's a dick liberal, so kick away.

TR suffers the taint of the beginner. Don't expect people to be logical and objective about that. Regardless of sub-discipline, by the time people have spent a couple of years learning what they know about the sport, they want to consider themselves beyond that.

Sport climbing is certainly more dangerous in practice than top-roping. More people are injured, more seriously, sport climbing. The forces that are unleashed when the climber makes a mistake in judgement are greater - its just simple physics and probability from there.

But clearly, the sport climbing revolution of the 80s brought a lot of people into climbing who did not have an interest in learning everything that goes into trad climbing - figuring out how to protect safely, and constantly trying to decide if what you are doing is safe enough, takes climbing beyond the point of fun for 50% of the climbers out there. (I say "50%" because the proportion of the total population that climbs in the US about doubled over the 1980s.) It has turned out to be a popular mix of some risks, some expertise, and athleticism.

Convenience? We are all pretty good at rationalizing why something isn't "just a convenience." Perma-draws are more convenient than bare bolt hangers ... bolted belay anchors are more convenient than build-your-own ... cams are more convenient than hexes ... and Bonatti used to complain that clean gear was more convenient than the pitons of his day.

I don't think the appeal of a particular form of recreation is wholly amenable to philosophical inquiry and analysis.

Trad Ninja wrote: My other reason for the OP is to show that if sport climbing is not just about the hard moves like TR but also about the lead then perma-draws for easier clips is contrary to that goal.

yawn

Shawn Mitchell wrote: Joe, I have to leap to R Kelly's defense. He posts some of the driest, funniest shite on MP. Once in a while when (I think) he's serious, it's apparent. Other than that, it's for laughs. Like the comment you bit on. But he's a dick liberal, so kick away.

LOL-guess I don't keep track of who's who very well. Toes kinda hurt for kicking, maybe if I think about it for a while, I could come up with some nice, cruel taunts. Probably need to wait for another post...

Shawn Mitchell wrote: Joe, I have to leap to R Kelly's defense. He posts some of the driest, funniest shite on MP. Once in a while when (I think) he's serious, it's apparent. Other than that, it's for laughs. Like the comment you bit on. But he's a dick liberal, so kick away.

Actually, Joe is pretty close, but if I were him I wouldn't argue with a man who pee pees on young women.

shuminW wrote: Angry tirade.

Wow, Nick, you really are good at this. I mean it usually takes someone spitting vitriol about politics or religion to get people this riled up. You manage to do it with hokey climbing comments that leave you with plausible deny-ability. Your trolling style is subtle, yet potent. Bravo good sir.

How threads with topics like this get to 4+ pages is beyond me.
Wow.

Congratulations, the pussification of climbing is complete.