BD Daisy Chain vs. Sterling Chain Reactor

JLP wrote:WTF - a bunch of regular posters having a noob drama. Shall we segue into marking our ropes?

johnL wrote:Maybe I'll get a Chain Reactor and clip it to my Gridlock.

Hilarious! Yeah, John don't forget to mark the middle of your Chain Reactor.

Can you guys recommend a good shoe for me? I like red ones.

It's cool Frank.
When I read what you wrote it was as I quoted.
Which is why I wasn't sure who was being attacked.

Regardless,I never like to see people acting like elitist pricks.

Cheers,

josh

rgold wrote:Rich, I've seen daisy pocket tests with failure values from 250 lbf to 1200 lbf. ... realizing that using the highest values anyone has obtained is not likely to correspond to reality.

Excellent point. I appreciate your thoughtful analysis of the physics involved here.

JPVallone wrote:...you have done your homework and continue to ask amazing questions and seek proven answers. But a vast majority of the Daisy Chain users out there are using them incorrectly on a daily basis...This being a public forum with a great mix of experience levels, I just think it's better to give answers that will most likely avoid the what ifs or you can use this gear if you modify it type answers. Which is essentially what you are telling people to do...

I also appreciate your thoughtful response. I certainly understand where you're coming from. I've been a guide, and have taught many people to climb, so I understand the desire for clear simple answers.

I see these arguments about daisy chains, etc. go by every so often and have never had the energy to weigh in. As someone else said, boring day on the internet (and raining outside). I guess my problem with simple rules, and the reason I chose to weigh in this time, is that climbing isn't well-governed by simple rules. All gear and techniques have limitations. Not everyone chooses to learn the limitations of their gear, and luckily there are enough safety factors built-in that these people are okay. My goal was to present a reasonable argument that the daisy can be used as a viable tool. It has limitations, as does every other way of anchoring yourself while climbing. Learning the limitations of your gear makes you a safer climber. I'm glad that this discussion of the details of personal tethers will be here when someone decides they want to learn more about it.

Plenty of people use daisy chains wrong. That doesn't mean the daisy chain is a bad idea. I see a lot of trad leaders that don't really understand their cams. (They just stuff them in a crack, clip the rope to it, and keep climbing. Often that is fine. But learning the subtleties of gear placement makes you a much safer leader) Their lack of understanding about cams doesn't mean cams aren't a great tool.

Interesting conversation.

two words...purcell prusik

Use a sling and clove off or just clove off
Your rope I your lifeline if u can't trust your rope start to boulder

I've posted this link before but I think it's worth posting again. I see lots of people clipping into anchors with all kinds of slings, daisies, cord, whatever. I don't really understand peoples resistance to using the rope at the anchors and a sling or two if you are rapping. Maybe some people just don't have enough shit on their harnesses? Maybe they think it makes them SAFER?

Don't do it. Just use the rope. Build the anchor with the rope and clip into the anchor with the rope. Simple. Simple. Simple.

Yarp wrote:I've posted this link before but I think it's worth posting again. I see lots of people clipping into anchors with all kinds of slings, daisies, cord, whatever. I don't really understand peoples resistance to using the rope at the anchors and a sling or two if you are rapping. Maybe some people just don't have enough shit on their harnesses? Maybe they think it makes them SAFER? Don't do it. Just use the rope. Build the anchor with the rope and clip into the anchor with the rope. Simple. Simple. Simple.

For the first time Yarp, I have to agree with you completely. I used a daisy when I first started out because I didn't know any better, but after using the rope I look back and wonder why I ever wasted the money on a daisy, and had all that hassle.

Yarp wrote:Don't do it. Just use the rope. Build the anchor with the rope and clip into the anchor with the rope. Simple. Simple. Simple.

If you're block leading, or your partner doesn't lead at all, then it's not so simple. Building your anchor with the rope just doesn't work.

I lead, my wife does not. I love the simplicity of building the anchor with the rope, but unless it's a single pitch climb I have to use slings or cord to build the anchor. It's just a reality of the situation.

Allen C. wrote: If you're block leading, or your partner doesn't lead at all, then it's not so simple. Building your anchor with the rope just doesn't work. ... It's just a reality of the situation.

Really? It works for me all the time. I must be doing it wrong.

Mike wrote: Really? It works for me all the time. I must be doing it wrong.

Please describe a typical rigging and transition for us.

Mike wrote: Really? It works for me all the time. I must be doing it wrong.

I think you mean tying into the anchor with the rope, which isn't much of a problem. He's referring to building the whole anchor with the rope.

Personally, I use the daisy only for aid, though when i was a beginner i misused it a bunch until i got comfortable tying in with the rope. The PAS style has less potential for misuse and more uses overall, so I'd take that if i could only have one.

I'll bring out the PAS if i'm bringing a beginner (my wife or my sister, for example) on multipitch to anchor them in, especially if the belays aren't huge/comfy. This way, when it's their turn to climb I can give them a snug belay off their anchor with no confusion about untying from their anchor and no communication issues... when I take the rope taught, I know i've got them, i'm not pulling on their anchor. Also makes it nice when we have to rap as I can extend their rap device and have it all setup if they're going second; or they have a simple method of clipping into the next bolts if they're going first. I know these are non-issues for any regular climber, but it's just easier/simpler when you're being the guide for a novice.

I've tried it (the PAS) for single pitch sport climbing, and i'd rather just clip in to the anchor draws direct or extended with extra draws/slings. I always have extra around anyways.

Allen C. wrote: If you're block leading, or your partner doesn't lead at all, then it's not so simple. Building your anchor with the rope just doesn't work. I lead, my wife does not. I love the simplicity of building the anchor with the rope, but unless it's a single pitch climb I have to use slings or cord to build the anchor. It's just a reality of the situation.

It isn't hard to do this and, when you know what you are doing, there is no time lost. With a three-piece anchor already in place it takes between 30 seconds and a minute to set up the second's anchor. Done efficiently, no time at all is lost. Here is the sequence:

The following picture shows what the belayer's anchor set-up looks like. The second is going to duplicate it.

The second should clean onto a sling. When they arrive at the belay, they tie a powerpoint overhand (in the picture I called it a "butterfly" but overhand is fine) and clove into one of the pieces, forming Knot 1 from the picture. They would usually clip into the biner that has the belayer's Knot 4, unclipping that knot and replacing it with theirs.

The second is now off belay. They pass the cleaning sling to the leader, and, in the next 30 seconds or so, finish setting up their anchor. Most of the time, they'll still have time to deal with the pile and get on belay before the leader has finished re-racking.

I've done this on scores, perhaps hundreds of routes, and there really is no loss of time involved. In fact, when you look at the total belay anchor set-up and break-down, including deploying the cordelette and then wrapping it up again, this might even turn out to be a tad faster!

The fact that I typically use the rope to tie in does not, however, mean that there aren't useful efficiencies to be had by using installed tethers---they just aren't used for attaching the belayer to the anchor.

i usually tie in with the rope ... the PAS is useful for cleaning, or on a bolts a fast anchor with the rope (clip draw at anchor, take, put PAS on other bolt, clove rope to draw)

as to the daisy/dyneema sling thing ... i think these gumbies do more climbing than most people here ...

i personally think that some people go off sprouting about stuff that may be theoretically "safer" but in reality doesnt matter ... there are many ways to die n climbing ... and daisies or PASes dont really concern me as long as you use them properlu

but then some people at the crag and on the intrawebs just love to tell you how unsafe your system is ...

I'm a lazy bastard sport climber sometimes.

And at those times, I love my Sterling Chain Reactor. It's simple, safe and color coded for me cause I'm dumb. Clip anchor once if I'm feeling Slovenian, clip it twice with lockers if I'm feeling American, and then pass the rope through the chains and rap on down!

Of course, the rest of the time, I do the awesomeness with my RG inspired clove hitches and my rope.

Hellz yeah!

rgold wrote: It isn't hard to do this and, when you know what you are doing, there is no time lost. With a three-piece anchor already in place it takes between 30 seconds and a minute to set up the second's anchor. Done efficiently, no time at all is lost. Here is the sequence: The following picture shows what the belayer's anchor set-up looks like. The second is going to duplicate it. The second should clean onto a sling. When they arrive at the belay, they tie a powerpoint overhand (in the picture I called it a "butterfly" but overhand is fine) and clove into one of the pieces, forming Knot 1 from the picture. They would usually clip into the biner that has the belayer's Knot 4, unclipping that knot and replacing it with theirs. The second is now off belay. They pass the cleaning sling to the leader, and, in the next 30 seconds or so, finish setting up their anchor. Most of the time, they'll still have time to deal with the pile and get on belay before the leader has finished re-racking. I've done this on scores, perhaps hundreds of routes, and there really is no loss of time involved. In fact, when you look at the total belay anchor set-up and break-down, including deploying the cordelette and then wrapping it up again, this might even turn out to be a tad faster! The fact that I typically use the rope to tie in does not, however, mean that there aren't useful efficiencies to be had by using installed tethers---they just aren't used for attaching the belayer to the anchor.

Thats quite a bit of knots to tie and you sure did use a nice chunk of rope, Switching that out to a second doesn't seem that efficient, but if you like it, roll with it. Plus once it's done it's kind of hard to make any adjustments in your position.

bearbreeder wrote:but then some people at the crag and on the intrawebs just love to tell you how unsafe your system is ...

Yes, and these folks who issue the dire warnings don't seem to notice that climber corpses are not piling up at the crags as a result of using Chain Reactor/PAS/daisy chain as a tether. Baffling, isn't it?

JL

shoo wrote: Clip a few together (clipping to the dogbone, NOT 'biner to 'biner) if you need to get it longer.

I've always questioned this. Truly, why? Why is it unsafe to clip biner to biner. If there was risk of shocking the system or moving it a lot, I might agree; but for the static moment of cleaning sport anchors, I don't see a problem with having two separate chains of draws clipped into your belay loop, even when they are chained biner to biner.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, I wanted to comment on a very poorly written and confusing article on the latest climbing mag (august 2011) that makes it sound like daisy chains are suicidal. I've used daisies (properly) as a self anchoring system for multipitch routes for 15 years and have 'never died' yet.

I think one needs to use some common sense when climbing, belaying and rigging anchors, always be redundant, and don't just rely on written instructions for safety...

JPVallone wrote: Thats quite a bit of knots to tie and you sure did use a nice chunk of rope, Switching that out to a second doesn't seem that efficient, but if you like it, roll with it. Plus once it's done it's kind of hard to make any adjustments in your position.

+1. Wow rgold that is an awesome anchor! I just can't imagine taking the time to set that up every 60 feet(love those eldo pitches).

You are all wrong. My way is the best.

Phil, it sets up just as fast as a cordelette and breaks down faster because there's nothing to wrap up and clip to your harness. If the pieces of the anchor are in awkward positions, it will set up faster than a cordelette, which may have to be shortened or supplemented with runners. And it is not subject to the dirty secret of cordelettes, which is the awkwardness of tying the power point knot and subsequent slack in one or more arms, slack that is sometimes not evident until uneven strands pull out of the knot under load.

JPV pointed out some drawbacks, although I think they are minor. The number of knots is an overhand knot and four clove hitches, which can be tied and tightened in about three seconds each. As I said, it sets up as fast as a cordelette.

The use of climbing rope is a potentially more telling objection. The set-up pictured uses about 12 feet of the rope. If the leader needs that last twelve feet, then the second dumps the climbing rope completely from the anchor, because (1) they are also clipped to the best piece with their installed tether, and (2) the leader is now 200 feet away with (one would hope) a ton of pieces in, and the second no longer needs a multi-piece bombproof anchor, especially in view of the fact that they are likely to be simulclimbing soon.

The speed of the method at multipitch stances does depend on having a second who knows how to set up rope anchors, so it isn't going to work with everyone, including some otherwise experienced climbers. And in favor of the cordelette, you can't beat the simplicity of having the second come up and just clip into a waiting power point.

But really, I don't want to persuade anyone, other than trying to correct untrue or misleading objections. Allen C. posted that you couldn't anchor with just the rope if you weren't swinging leads, so I tried to explain how it can be done in a practical and efficient manner.

rgold wrote: Allen C. posted that you couldn't anchor with just the rope if you weren't swinging leads, so I tried to explain how it can be done in a practical and efficient manner.

Actually, what I said was, "Building your anchor with the rope just doesn't work." As in it's not very practical. I guess I should have been more clear to say, "It just doesn't work well."

Again, if it works for you and your partners, cool. I'll stick with what works for me and mine.