Waimea Perma Draw Discussion

J. Albers wrote: Easy man, nobody is trying to "devolve" the discussion into a perma versus no perma draw discussion. For the record, I think its great that Mr. Otey is taking the time, money, and effort to try and update the hardware at Waimea. That said, I think that it is more than fair for people to needle you guys little bit for having fixed hardware in the first place, because like it or not, it IS lazy (Waimea is most definitely not so steep and long that fixed gear is a requirement....this ain't the Jailhouse folks). Furthermore, your comment stating that you should take your discussion elsewhere where "Waimea climbers can freely discuss Waimea issues" is unfortunate. Just because you are a local, doesn't mean you own the place and that others don't have a right to comment.

Fixed draws have been up at Waimea for as long as I can remember. This situation is HOW not IF. IF they are going to be there then finding the best way HOW to do it is what they are going for. Also starting from square one with the biners with all round stock steel will help avoid having sharp edges like happens with non round aluminum biners.

Having cable draws should be a lot nicer than having random nylon of unknown age and wear on routes that WILL have fixed draws on them one way or another.

I never thought that my comments would generate so much flak. I just thought that this is a local issue that should be handled by people who actively climb at the crag. I was also trying to keep the discussion out of the ethical sinkhole that is the fixed draws discussion.

My 2 cents? The situation at Shagg was a mess, and I would hate to see that replicated at Waimea. Most of the bolts at Shagg were adorned with two foot long cables covered with blue plastic. Very unsightly. If we could get shorter cables, and get a gray covering, I think it would actually reduce the visual impact, as Mark suggested. If Climb Tech doesn't offer gray-colored plastic coverings, then maybe an offer to buy thousands of dollars of their draws would be impetus for them to begin offering rock colored coverings.

Albers, I'll belay you on your draw-hanging ascent of China Beach, or Livin Astro, or Urban Surfer. I'll even lower you patiently as you try to clean your draws from those routes... Sh*t, I got drawn into the sinkhole.

I don't think anyone is advocating for putting draws on routes that don't already have them. Is that correct? If that is the case I would think either black or grey draws would make the crag look better then the assorted rainbow draws up now.

Anyway I climb at Waimea often enough to contribute some money for this project.

I am definitely not a local but I think that Rumney is neither steep enough nor tall enough to require fixed draws. The Shagg Crag situation was unfortunate to say the least. But if locals aren't cleaning draws after working or sending routes, then safer options are probably better. Of course a few New England winters might start rotting the cables next. Better in my view to promote a higher standard and support keeping the routes free of anything but truly fixed hardware.

Jay Knower wrote:Albers, I'll belay you on your draw-hanging ascent of China Beach, or Livin Astro, or Urban Surfer. I'll even lower you patiently as you try to clean your draws from those routes... Sh*t, I got drawn into the sinkhole.

ahhhh....sinkhole sucking me in....

Jay, I'm honestly not trying to be a rabble-rouser here. If in my initial posts I came across as such (or unfriendly for that matter), I apologize. To clarify my perspective a bit....

I think fixed draws are overdone most places. For instance, the home crag that I frequent the most is totally chained up. It is completely unnecessary because although the routes are 130 feet and overhanging, you can clean them when lowering. Do I clip them? Yes. Would I prefer to put up my own draws? Yes. Despite my disagreement with their presence, do I and/or my partners replace worn biners to help with crag upkeep? Yes. In short, I try to be a pragmatist.

I do understand that some routes are a total bitch to clean (some are maybe even impossible without seconding the route) and for these routes, I am fine with fixed gear. However, I think fixed gear is ugly and more often than not, purely present because of laziness. And IMHO, laziness is not a good reason to fix a whole cliff. If I can't hang the draws on a route because it is too hard, then perhaps I should pick a different route, eh? I think a great way to work a route is to go bolt-to-bolt as the final warmup before trying to redpoint....this is a perfect time to hang the draws.

I guess the ideal situation would be that those routes that truly "need" fixed gear get it, while those that have fixed gear purely for convenience get stripped. I like the idea of updating hardware (again, thank you Mr. Otey, Jay, etc. for putting your time and effort into replacing hardware), but the idea of buying $2000 worth of cables to fix a whole cliff seems like a potentially dangerous precedent to set. Jay, I have confidence in your judgement when implementing fixed gear. However, most folks don't have good judgement, and then you end up with what happened at Shagg. I think that influential locals have an opportunity to try and set an example for others to follow. What I think would be a total bummer would be for new climbers, young kids etc., to see my local crag totally fixed and then run up to Shuteye Ridge in the backcountry Sierra and chain the whole place up because, well, it is "standard practice." All I am suggesting is to be conservative with the fixing.

Also, thanks for the belay offer, though I don't think I will be trying Livin' Astro anytime soon...China providing plenty of a$$ thumping for one trip. Have a good day and good luck raising the necessary funds to update the hardware.

Peter Beal wrote: Better in my view to promote a higher standard and support keeping the routes free of anything but truly fixed hardware.

+1

Don't like 'em, but some of the routes at WIamea need perma-draws. Hope someone has checked out CAMP's draws... A LOT less crappy looking than the cables.

CAMP permadraw

Ryan Williams wrote:Don't like 'em, but some of the routes at WIamea need perma-draws. Hope someone has checked out CAMP's draws... A LOT less crappy looking than the cables. CAMP permadraw

We've already discussed this in post 14- we aren't sold due to the lack of abrasion and UV resistance.

Per S. Neoh on the Waimea main page:

Follow-up -
I e-mailed ClimbTech about making their Perma Draws less visible at Rumney and a Manager responded very quickly with this -
"We can and are ordering a clear greyish tubing. We can also special order different colors and powder coat biners and quick-links. It just adds expense. We could use a light grey tubing that we have in stock and the rest could be painted on-site to save some money if you wish.
Can you gives us an idea of potential quantities as well as the colors you are looking for and we can try to get a quote together."

Otey, that's great news about the coloring. Albers, I think you and I are in agreement about the draws- there's a time and a place for them.

Given the update from ClimbTech about different color options, I am personally sold on their perma-draws and would love to contribute to the "fund".

I think you should consider collecting donations under a 'legal' entity so more people and even organizations (e.g. gyms) would be less reluctant to participate. Sometimes putting money in a jar is not so convincing. RCA is probably the best if it's still legit!!!

In terms of the fund raising effort, I really love what these guys are doing down at the Red.

In a nutshell, it's an effort to rebolt and reequip the Motherlode! Initially they were asking for random donations. But then the idea of 'adopting' a single route was brought up. i.e. one person pledges to donate the cost for rebolting a single route and his/her name is kept on record.

I think it might work well in this case as well. Would be more than happy to sign myself up!

James Otey wrote: We've already discussed this in post 14- we aren't sold due to the lack of abrasion and UV resistance.

The abrasion and sun are both reasonable concerns. Could be worse though, at the local tough guy crag near me, they use sections of old rope. The knots made by the rope are great for grabbing when pumped, and the rope sheath does a pretty good job of shielding the core from the sun, but talk about f**king trashy looking!!!

However, one thing about the cable draws that you may want to consider is the following. You guys get pretty nasty, wet, humid weather a majority of the year. If you have cable draws that have some form of plastic tubing as a sheath, is there a possibility that the sheath will be holding in moisture that will speed the corrosion and overall deterioration of the cable? Moreover, if you do have a problem with cable corrosion, will having a sheath over the cable make it difficult to assess whether the cable is in bad shape? Might the situation occur where you have a dangerously corroded cable that looks fine from the outside? A sun faded draw is pretty easy to assess, even at a distance, a corroded cable covered with a black tube/sheath may not be easy to recognize. I don't know the answer to this, but it may be something to think about.

J. Albers wrote: The abrasion and sun are both reasonable concerns. Could be worse though, at the local tough guy crag near me, they use sections of old rope. The knots made by the rope are great for grabbing when pumped, and the rope sheath does a pretty good job of shielding the core from the sun, but talk about f**king trashy looking!!! However, one thing about the cable draws that you may want to consider is the following. You guys get pretty nasty, wet, humid weather a majority of the year. If you have cable draws that have some form of plastic tubing as a sheath, is there a possibility that the sheath will be holding in moisture that will speed the corrosion and overall deterioration of the cable? Moreover, if you do have a problem with cable corrosion, will having a sheath over the cable make it difficult to assess whether the cable is in bad shape? Might the situation occur where you have a dangerously corroded cable that is looks fine from the outside? A sun faded draw is pretty easy to assess, even at a distance, a corroded cable covered with a black tube/sheath may not be easy to recognize. Just something to think about.

That is an important concern- thanks for bringing it up. It would be interesting to see how the cable at Shagg is fairing. I'm pretty sure this stuff doesn't corrode at all. It's galvanized steel, meaning it's coated. Even if it doesn't last completely forever, it will beat what we have now my a huge margin.

Jay Knower wrote:I just thought that this is a local issue that should be handled by people who actively climb at the crag.

I resist getting involved again, but this is a dangerous attitude.

Whether you realize it or not, those of you who climb these hard routes are the "mentors" for the next generation of sport climbers. The decisions you make on how to manage Waimea (and other Rumney crags) are observed by those around you and they take this "ethic" with them when they move to other places. Your decisions help guide the future trajectory of the sport and attitudes on what is and isn't acceptable. So please don't delude yourselves with the notion that your actions affect only Waimea or Rumney.

Also, I find it pretty striking how easily your feelings are hurt by those who disagree with you. You get defensive even with those who try to do it in the most tactful of ways. You're campaigning for money on a public forum to do something that I and many others disagree with, so expect some criticism. Maybe I'm just an idiot trad climber who "only leads 5.10," but I don't think that "convenience" should be the primary decision-making factor in our sport.

Tom Fralich wrote: I resist getting involved again, but this is a dangerous attitude. Whether you realize it or not, those of you who climb these hard routes are the "mentors" for the next generation of sport climbers. The decisions you make on how to manage Waimea (and other Rumney crags) are observed by those around you and they take this "ethic" with them when they move to other places. Your decisions help guide the future trajectory of the sport and attitudes on what is and isn't acceptable. So please don't delude yourselves with the notion that your actions affect only Waimea or Rumney. Also, I find it pretty striking how easily your feelings are hurt by those who disagree with you. You get defensive even with those who try to do it in the most tactful of ways. You're campaigning for money on a public forum to do something that I and many others disagree with, so expect some criticism. Maybe I'm just an idiot trad climber who "only leads 5.10," but I don't think that "convenience" should be the primary decision-making factor in our sport.

Can't help yourself can you...

Again, what you do in one area or crag does not mean it will automatically spread to another crag. there are only a selected few routes with fixed draws or regular project draws at a few different crags around rumney.. ie orange crush, monsters, main cliff right.

i think you over exaggerate the effect of one area has over another. this is twice in a week man. You need to relax and realize that the people making these decisions aren't idiots and many of them have been climbing for a very long time.. they could quite possibly know better than you.

I probably don't belong in this discussion because I don't visit Rumney much (although I absolutely love it!) and don't climb at this level, BUT....

Tom, I understand your concerns, but a post was recently resurrected from years ago in another Rumney debate where a non-local (completely different U.S. region) argued about a ladder at one of the crags. He argued against it insistently, then backed off immediately once he saw a picture of it. Many of these things are impossible to understand without being a frequenter or local of the crag. That's why its better left to the locals. Ethics generally don't reach pandemic all too quickly either. (See Czech areas that still do not use trad gear..)

wow, im glad i was at work while most of this discussion was going down... all i have to add is this...
JeffP- im sorry i donated $100 worth of gear to Tsunami, i just wanted people to climb what i think is the best 5.12 at Waimea and they WONT if its the only classic without fixers...

I read on the previous forum about this that fixed draws would only be allowed on anything 5.12 and up. Correct? If so, then what about the 5.12 and below climbers? Are we not worthy of this convenience?

Nick Rhoads wrote:I read on the previous forum about this that fixed draws would only be allowed on anything 5.12 and up. Correct? If so, then what about the 5.12 and below climbers? Are we not worthy of this convenience?

Apparently not :) And it has to be solid 5.12, no soft 12a routes allowed

This entire issue is being taken care of by a core group of locals who share a reasonable and pragmatic sentiment on the Waimea issue.

I posted this thread in an attempt to organize this core group, but it has clearly caught flack from people who aren't readily involved in the outcome of the process. I was wrong in placing this discussion in an open forum.

Let me be clear: this was not meant to be a discussion of ethics, but internet anonymity has brought it down to that level. This is not a question of "unsightly draws for lazy climbers." It is a question of safety and longevity. We WILL be fixing certain lines on Waimea with custom low visual impact draws. This is an improvement over what we have now, and have had for the last 10 years. The issue is one for locals, and has been moved into that circle.

We greatly appreciate the feedback and suggestions, but it's time to take this another way. Thanks all!

lee hansche wrote:I just wanted people to climb what i think is the best 5.12 at Waimea and they WONT if its the only classic without fixers...

Really? Sport climbers are that lazy?

Well I think Whitney-Gilman is the best 5.7 trad route in NH. So why don't we install a ski lift to the bottom and leave a TR hanging on every pitch so that more people will climb it?

Wake up people. Not everyone thinks like you. Not everyone is in favor of converting outdoor crags into climbing gyms. I'm sorry that challenges your egos.

You can voice your opinion that you think it's OK, and I can voice my opinion that it's not OK. But I'd have a hard time sleeping at night if I didn't call you out on it.