How many goes?

It takes more time to progress through the grades as you climb harder because you are getting closer to your absolute limit. Wouldn't it be weird if it was easy to progress through the grades to say arbitrarily 5.12b and while it was not really that bad, it took you as many tries to do your first as it took you to do your first 5.9 and all of a sudden you could not climb 5.12c because it was just past your maximum ability?

Unlike Yarp, I've not on-sighted every 5.7 I've ever been on, though the last I can remember pulling on gear on was during a rain storm that caused flooding in Yosemite and was the first pitch of a 5.10. SO maybe in some people's eyes I'm a 5.6 climber...

for one route is somewhere between 175-200 attempts (every time i tied in for it), i lost count after 150 or so because it doesn't really matter. but i have enjoyed every one. and after quitting smoking 8 months ago, and much training over the winter (insert Rocky 4 montage here), i am looking forward to getting back someday soon and actually putting it away.

but typically no more than a dozen or so.

Greg D wrote:This all boils down to ego. ... Just about the numbers at this point. ...

not true.

but i do think it is about Ego for others to care/judge how many "goes" someone ELSE puts on a route.

ADRIAN!!!!! ADRIAN!!!!!

DRAGO!

interesting perspective JLP.
i think another good rule of thumb is having sport redpoint limit about 1 full grade above onsight level. and trad redopint level about 2 full grades above trad onsight. when you push your redpoint limits, i feel it helps bring up the onsight ability...

besides, projecting after say a couple dozen attempts is a mental crux. especially if you have proven to yourself that you can do the moves physically. but do not underestimate 'low-percentage' type moves.

LeeAB wrote:Ryan, the difference between .11b and c seems easier to you because you can do it. The grade gap is supposed to stay the same, I know, completely arbitrary. There are lots of people however that would argue that as the grade goes up the difference gets smaller as people look for the next harder grade to please the public. There will always be hard and easy routes at any given grade.

Yea you are right, I guess I kind of worded that wrong. There is not supposed to be a bigger difference in grades in the 12's than 11's... it just gets harder to ad on that extra letter the higher you get because you are approaching your limit.

Tom, great topic, I have wondered this myself as well. I'm in the same situation where I can send 13- in a few goes, but 13+ feels impossible. I tend to get discouraged quickly on routes that I can't do all the moves on (most of the hard routes in NM are basically boulder problems) so I've never given anything a whole lot of goes. The most goes I've ever given a route is 11, with most of my harder sends being in the 5-9 trys range. I'm beginning to run out of the "easier" routes in my area so I've been trying to attempt harder projects and stay motivated for them. I think I read somewhere (maybe Self Coached Climber) that around 8-10 goes was the optimal range for learning.

On the routes that took 30 goes, did it feel impossible for the first 10 or 20 goes. How long did it take to do all the moves?

Darren Mabe wrote:for one route is somewhere between 175-200 attempts (every time i tied in for it), i lost count after 150 or so because it doesn't really matter. but i have enjoyed every one.

Jesus Christ Darren! I am glad I am not an outlaw and you the sheriff. That must be some climb. It would have to be a really really great route for me to put that much time into it. I admire your tenacity. Eric

1Eric Rhicard wrote: Jesus Christ Darren! I am glad I am not an outlaw and you the sheriff. That must be some climb. It would have to be a really really great route for me to put that much time into it. I admire your tenacity. Eric

I admire whoever he suckered into belaying him on one route that many times.

Bottom line: Are you having fun? Are you psyched to get on that proj for the 50th burn? That's all you have to answer. If you're only doing it to check a box in the guidebook and each burn ends in a hail of echoing F-bombs, then it might be time to find something else for a while. I know. However, I do think there is some etiquette when it comes to projecting desert cracks.

D-Storm wrote:Bottom line: Are you having fun? Are you psyched to get on that proj for the 50th burn? That's all you have to answer. If you're only doing it to check a box in the guidebook

Although I want to agree that having fun is the only thing that matters, there is nothing like checking a box that you've been looking at for months or even years. That sounds like a lot of fun to me.

I think an equally good question would be, where they heck are you people finding belayers that are willing to go back for 30+ redpoint attempts?

Sam Stephens wrote: I admire whoever he suckered into belaying him on one route that many times.

inboulder wrote:I think an equally good question would be, where they heck are you people finding belayers that are willing to go back for 30+ redpoint attempts?

the ones that also put in 30+ redpoint attempts. ;) thx dave.

djkyote wrote:over time, I've learned to enjoy the process, like Sisyphus en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus The longest I have spent is about 12 days: 3 bolt to bolt, 4-5 to get to the final crux, then 4ish on actual attempts at linkage. so, at least 40 times on the route, but only about 12-15 actual attempts. aside from warming up, it was all I climbed for 6 weeks. knowing i would do the route at like day 8 was probably more satisfaction than the actual send. great posting Tom, i think regardless of the grade, the dedication to the process is what reaps the greatest rewards.

excellently put.

Tom Rangitsch wrote:I expect this has been discussed before on MP, but I can't find the post, so here goes. I just sent a project that was pretty hard for me and took a while. It got me to thinking about how many goes I usually take on a project and what is the "norm." This particular route took around 30 redpoint attempts, and I have put in probably 45 on another route in the past as my max. I figure it usually takes me about 15-20 if it is something really hard for me. Just curious what other people have experienced. Please don't post if you are one of these "dude, I am so trad and if it takes me more than 3 tries I move on" types. I am more interested in people that attempt long term projects and have experienced the "Jesus Christ, why am I still pounding my head against this stupid pile" moment, eventually following by the "yes it was all worth it" moment that invariably lasts about 5 minutes.

Some people might call me a gym rat but in the winter I usually try hard climbs at my max but when you project hard in the gym and climb hard you get power. In say when you project 5.12 in the gym during the winter and send a lot of 5.12' s you get the power for 5.12 and when you go outside climbing in the summer you get the brains for 5.12 and then that year you have conquered 5.12 and your on to 5.13.

Interesting take on this over on the Moonblog, here's the synopsis...

I see at many wall climbers frittering away their talent and energy in pointless training or idle posing-the ‘big fish in a small pond’ syndrome. In comparison, my own personal success story (first ascent of Make It Funky, my one and only 8C) came not out of my relatively small fund of natural ability or strength but from a huge commitment of time and energy; 60 days spread over 3 years actually trying the route were based on a foundation of at least 200 training days (based in blocks before the chosen ‘redpoint season’). Everything was geared towards achieving success

moonclimbing.com/Mark-Prett…

JLP wrote: I rarely put much work into a route that is over a full # above my 75% onsight. I have met climbers who rather consistently fail to onsight 2 full # grades below their [claimed] hardest redpoint. These guys spend too much time projecting, not enough climbing.

Interesting perspective. So then what about the converse? For e.g., my hardest redpoints (which have taken between 3-7 tries) are only a letter grade or two above what I have onsighted multiple times and only 3 letter grades or so above what is a fairly consistent onsight level for me.

I guess it is possible that my situation is the way it is because I really enjoy onsight climbing and/or perhaps I find onsight climbing more rewarding (....or maybe because I am total lazy wanker.) Regardless, I wonder whether my climbing would benefit from spending more time projecting things (say more than 20 tries on a project.)

Any thoughts from those of you who project a lot? Do you get different things out of onsighting a lot of routes versus long term projecting? Have you found projecting to be crucial to your progression as a climber?

I have been working on a hideously technical and friction dependent boulder problem for the past year. It is on a glass smooth vertical face and starts with a good left hand side-pull scoop, with one good foothold directly below the left hand about 20 inches below. You have to flag/smear and push hard with the right foot and deadpoint up to the shittiest little crease of all time up and right, which you press into with two fingers, stem up with your right leg on a glass smear and lock off. The next move is slightly easier, but it is so friction dependent that I have to wash the right hand crease off after every time I try it. I usually only have two burns in me when I visit, as it is shouldery, extremely frustrating and really only feels possible on 40 degree (and zero humidity) or colder days.

So I onsite 5.9/10 trad and mid 10 to low 11 sport. And I can pull all the moves on my 11d projects. But linking has not happend on lead or tr. Granted I am at like 4 tries. Does this make my project not even a project? I considered a project any good line bat you want to send. But 50or 60 tries sounds like absurdity.