BD Gridlock screwgate biner

I'm sure that they work fine but I've never had an issue w/ my belay biner rotating. If you have this problem often then you are belaying wrong. Buying another carabiner is not the way to fix this problem, and in fact is just consumerism at it's worst.

I've got the dmm belay master and I really like it. It's definately heavier than the BD Grid lock, but thing I like most about the DMM is there is NO way for your device to end up near the gate. Great for rope soloing. Where as the BD gridlock still wouldn't completely prevent your device from cross loading the gate. Great for rope soloing.

Ryan Williams wrote:I'm sure that they work fine but I've never had an issue w/ my belay biner rotating. If you have this problem often then you are belaying wrong. Buying another carabiner is not the way to fix this problem, and in fact is just consumerism at it's worst.

Really? Sure it doesn't happen often but I have had my biner cross loaded a few times when the climber took. What do I need to do different with my belay style to ensure this doesn't happen?

Ryan Williams wrote:I'm sure that they work fine but I've never had an issue w/ my belay biner rotating. If you have this problem often then you are belaying wrong. Buying another carabiner is not the way to fix this problem, and in fact is just consumerism at it's worst.

I'll respectfully disagree with you Ryan. Every now and then my belay biner winds up cross loaded and I've been climbing for about 10 years, I'm a gear weenie, a voracious reader of technique books, etc - I know my belay technique is solid. Biners just rotate sometimes. I've noticed it happens with my Cinch the most.

Jon H wrote: I'll respectfully disagree with you Ryan. Every now and then my belay biner winds up cross loaded and I've been climbing for about 10 years, I'm a gear weenie, a voracious reader of technique books, etc - I know my belay technique is solid. Biners just rotate sometimes. I've noticed it happens with my Cinch the most.

Agreed- climb long enough and it happens. In fairness you can spend time monitoring and do work around it from that angle but peace of mind.....

No matter what device you are using, leading or TRing, it's easy to keep this from happening. I haven't been climbing for 10 years, but I have belayed more pitches than quite a few people who have.

Any time I'm belaying someone on TR, I keep just enough tension in the rope so that there is tension on my belay loop. We aren't in the practice of head-pointing, but I assume that even if you keep a loose TR, you can keep tension on the belay loop by one of the methods below.

Any time I am lead belaying I keep tension on my belay loop. If you have an ATC you pull the top rope just a bit and hold the brake strand, this keeps tension on the belay loop. When I feed slack I am still able to keep the belay loop tight. I don't like doing the shuffle thing like you see most people do for the very reason that it allows the biner to bounce around loosely. I just let the rope feed through my brake hand, keeping my hand closed and touching the rope.

If you are using a Cinch or Gri Gri, just keep tension on the belay loop by pulling the device away from your body with your right hand. You've always got your hand on the device so this is easy.

I guess the more you climb the more shit happens. But I haven't had a biner cross-load yet.

Also, I haven't rope soloed much but I completely understand why you'd want this kind of biner for rope soloing. I'd probably buy one if I did any climbing of that nature.

applying outward pressure on the belay loop always, 100% of the time? Whatever works for you I guess.
Belay biners are $18 - 20 bucks anyway, these don't seem to be an over priced gimmick sort of thing.

THE BD Gridlock elegantly solves a problem I've been dinking with for 15 years. Good job BD!

I was psyched to get the Petzl Attache 3D cause of how light it was. But because of the I-Beam construction when it started to groove it got super sharp. The Gridlock is round enough that I don't think the groove will ever be sharp.

One of my partners is using the Gridlock and she showed me one problem she was having. When she removes it from her belay loop, you have to open the gate so it will clear the belay loop. And if you are not paying attention you can drop your belay device...

I dropped my belay/rap device off the side of a cliff at a rap site before there was a Gridlock.

people have been using normal lockers for decades to belay ... how many accidents have been the result of belay biners snapping due to crossloading?

not too many i suspect ... there are many other things to worry about

the gridlock does not prevent the most important thing ... making sure the gate is LOCKED

the belay master or autolocker does

Glenn Schuler wrote:applying outward pressure on the belay loop always, 100% of the time? Whatever works for you I guess. Belay biners are $18 - 20 bucks anyway, these don't seem to be an over priced gimmick sort of thing.

Yes I like to belay properly 100% of the time. You don't? Whatever works for you I guess.

The Petzl attache is $14 retail and it's the best belay biner out there IMHO. I'll stick w/ that. If I WERE to buy a biner to offset my bad belaying habits, it would be from a company that I still have some respect for... DMM.

Not only are those guys in it for the love of what they do, but their version (the belay master) makes sure you have the gate closed and gives you the option to belay w/o the gimmick if you want.

I'm sure there is a Messner quote that would be appropriate now, but I can't remember it verbatim.

Ryan Williams wrote: Yes I like to belay properly 100% of the time. You don't?

It's possible to belay correctly and still have the belay biner end up with no tension on it. Have you never taken a drink of water or put on a shell while you were balaying?

Spare me the belay lecture and Messsner references, I was asking if anyone has used one of these. Mal seems to think they're OK, but what does he know? ;)

I picked one up and I like it. I've been using it trad and sport climbing. When I use it with a tube-style device (I use a Reverso 2), I clip the big end to the rope(s); when I use a Gri-gri, I use the small end on the device and the big end on my belay loop.

I agree that if you climb long enough, it's just a matter of time before you look down and see that your belay 'biner is oriented with the potential for cross loading. I never actually had to catch a fall while it was oriented that way because I always fix it immediately. But it's nice to know that you basically don't have to worry about the potential for cross loading while belaying anymore.

That being said, in fifteen years of climbing I've never heard of anyone cross loading their belay 'biner while catching a fall, though I'm sure it's happened.

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bearbreeder wrote:people have been using normal lockers for decades to belay ... how many accidents have been the result of belay biners snapping due to crossloading?

I agree with your thinking here.

bearbreeder wrote:the gridlock does not prevent the most important thing ... making sure the gate is LOCKED

But I also have to ask you, How many incidents have you heard of where a belayer had their 'biner open the moment that they caught a fall, leaving their 'biner's strength severely compromised? I've never heard of either incident happening in fifteen years of climbing.

I would probably argue that both potential incidents--a cross-loaded 'biner and a open-gate 'biner--are probably more perceived than actual risk. Open-gate 'biners have similar strengths to cross-loaded 'biners.

I pulled a few of my lockers out and came up with this breakdown:

• Petzl Attache 3D: cross-loaded 7kN; open-gate 6kN
• Petzl Attache: cross-loaded 7kn; open-gate 6kN
• Petzl William: cross-loaded 7kN; open-gate 7kN
• Lowe Alpine old-skool 'biner: cross-loaded 10 kN; open-gate 9kN
• Black Diamond Vaporlock: cross-loaded 8kN; open-gate 8kN
• Black Diamond Rocklock~~

(I've got two of the apparently same 'biner with different ratings): One says cross-loaded & open-gate are both rated to 7kN; the other says cross-loaded 7kN; open-gate 8kN.
(I'm not sure what's up with that discrepancy, though I did notice they both have different CE #s attached to them.)

--Marc

I don't think that there is anything wrong with the biner and I'd use one if someone gave it to me. My problem is that this is another example of a climbing company creating products that don't solve real problems; they do, however, make money. Of course once the product is created, paranoid beginners and gear fanatics come up with dozens of problems that said product solves. I actually think it's a clever design but I guarantee the person that designed it was thinking about sales just as much as safety.

Kudos to BD for coming up with another money maker. They've gotten everyone to go out and replace their belay biners with a "safer" model. I just don't think a great business sense is an important quality in a climbing company, that's all.

Like someone has already said, people have been climbing without them for years. How often do you hear about a belay biner breaking?

Glenn Schuler wrote: It's possible to belay correctly and still have the belay biner end up with no tension on it. Have you never taken a drink of water or put on a shell while you were balaying? Spare me the belay lecture and Messsner references, I was asking if anyone has used one of these. Mal seems to think they're OK, but what does he know? ;)

Of course I have done other things while I'm belaying but obviously we choose to do those things at the right time, for obvious reasons. If you are taking a drink of water or putting on a jacket and the climber falls... I'm willing to bet that you lose control of the rope or get slammed into the wall and get knocked out. A Gridlock isn't solving either of those problems is it... but then we have the Gri Gri for that kind of laziness.

Of course I don't take Mal's opinion lightly but we all have our own ideas of what products solve problems and which ones are created for sales. As someone who thinks outside the box and creates products that do solve real problems, I know he understands that. I wouldn't expect someone in his position to come on the internet and bash another product even if he hated it.

Glenn, it sound as if you think Mal's posts are more relevant than mine, and rightfully so. If that is the case, then why not just buy the thing and stop arguing with me?

Respectfully, I don't think what you claim is the case at all with the Gridlock or Belay master. The RAPID uptake of the Gridlock by a broad range of climbers is indicative, in my opinion, of a problem that truly does exist. Mal Daly is not the only extremely experienced "old sage" to comment favorably on this biner. There have been several others. I have 18 years under my belt and immediately saw the benefits of this new design as well. The DMM design is good as well and useful in slightly different situations (rope solo setups in particular). The new DMM BM3 looks like it could solve the major complaint with the BM series - that of having the plastic clip flop around and get caught when not in use. The Gridlock is an even more elegant solution to the real, if not all that frequent, cross-loading issue.

I have excellent belay technique and do it just as you do - keep tension in the belay loop as much as possible. The thing is, you CAN'T do it all the time. There are times, out of your control, where slack will occur in that loop. Futzing with rope coils, adjusting a hood etc etc. Crap happens and now matter HOW MUCH you try, that belay biner will end up caught in a cross loading position at some point.

Now, like you said, how many times has a belay biner failed in cross loading? None that I know of. HOWEVER, I see no problem what so ever improving my odds just a little bit more in this particular circumstance. As climbers, we should avoid being satisfied with the staus quo safety wise. While there are many, many things in climbing that fall under the "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" realm, we also need to be open to improvements in gear and techniques. Making the sport safer is never a bad thing. There's always a sub-set of "gear hater" climbers. Not sure why, but it certainly exists. "We don't need auto locking gates, quick lock harness buckles, GriGris et al" has been a grumble of sorts from some climbers for generations.

There are certainly times when gimmicky gear is made (Cough - Mad Rock Trigger Wire - Cough). I don't believe however, that belay biners fall into this realm.

Ryan Williams wrote:I don't think that there is anything wrong with the biner and I'd use one if someone gave it to me. My problem is that this is another example of a climbing company creating products that don't solve real problems; they do, however, make money. Of course once the product is created, paranoid beginners and gear fanatics come up with dozens of problems that said product solves. I actually think it's a clever design but I guarantee the person that designed it was thinking about sales just as much as safety. Kudos to BD for coming up with another money maker. They've gotten everyone to go out and replace their belay biners with a "safer" model. I just don't think a great business sense is an important quality in a climbing company, that's all. Like someone has already said, people have been climbing without them for years. How often do you hear about a belay biner breaking? Of course I have done other things while I'm belaying but obviously we choose to do those things at the right time, for obvious reasons. If you are taking a drink of water or putting on a jacket and the climber falls... I'm willing to bet that you lose control of the rope or get slammed into the wall and get knocked out. A Gridlock isn't solving either of those problems is it... but then we have the Gri Gri for that kind of laziness. Of course I don't take Mal's opinion lightly but we all have our own ideas of what products solve problems and which ones are created for sales. As someone who thinks outside the box and creates products that do solve real problems, I know he understands that. I wouldn't expect someone in his position to come on the internet and bash another product even if he hated it. Glenn, it sound as if you think Mal's posts are more relevant than mine, and rightfully so. If that is the case, then why not just buy the thing and stop arguing with me?

well by that logic we should back up our belay loops ... since i believe there was an actual accident where the belay loop failed ... or never use tied slings since we all know that a knot is an additional failure point and can become untied

personally i think BD found a niche market with people's hidden fear ... and came up with a product to fill it ...

if the cross loading belay biner snapping is really an issue i expect to see climbing gyms and competitions requiring use of a gridlock/BM biner soon ... somehow i doubt that is happening

as to locking ... ive caught people with unlocked belay biners ... the issue is not so much the biner snapping IMO, but rather something coming out of the biner

Ryan Williams wrote:My problem is that this is another example of a climbing company creating products that don't solve real problems; they do, however, make money. Of course once the product is created, paranoid beginners and gear fanatics come up with dozens of problems that said product solves.

I think you're off, Ryan - both with your assessment of "real problems" encountered by climbers and of product development.

I've been climbing for 16yrs and feel the Gridlock (and BM series) solves real world problems. Shit happens - never mind having to eat/piss/layer, I'm just talking about botched clips, bouncing falls, long dynos, gear pulling out - it is impossible (with just 2 hands) to maintain outward pressure 100% of the time. You're lying to yourself if you think it is. In the real world belay biners cross up (most often w/ GriGris etc) - people either don't look down and thus never notice it, or they periodically check because they know it's an issue and then correct it when it happens. The fact that belayers don't want the occurrence but it still happens constitutes a 'real problem.'

As for product development, something which I'm pretty familiar with, it is monumentally more profitable to develop a product that solves a recognized problem than to develop one in hopes that your marketing machine can put together a program to sell it. Holy crap is there a difference. Of the people here that have bought a Gridlock or BM, I doubt hardly any of them had to read a marketing blurb to be sold on the concept; instead, I'd argue we simply saw the damn thing and thought, "hot diggity, no more crossed-up belay biners."

Marc Horan wrote: How many incidents have you heard of where a belayer had their 'biner open the moment that they caught a fall, leaving their 'biner's strength severely compromised?

bearbreeder wrote:well by that logic we should back up our belay loops ... since i believe there was an actual accident where the belay loop failed ... or never use tied slings since we all know that a knot is an additional failure point and can become untied personally i think BD found a niche market with people's hidden fear ... and came up with a product to fill it ... if the cross loading belay biner snapping is really an issue i expect to see climbing gyms and competitions requiring use of a gridlock/BM biner soon ... somehow i doubt that is happening as to locking ... ive caught people with unlocked belay biners ... the issue is not so much the biner snapping IMO, but rather something coming out of the biner

I see a few disjointed thoughts here, but not an answer to my question. So I'll assume that you've never heard of someone catching a fall while the gate was open on their 'biner. I don't remeber talking about belay loops, but since you brought it up, its probably worth mentioning that I climb with at least two people that back up their belays loops with super tape.

Can you cite a case where the rope came "out of the 'biner?" Because I've certainly never heard of that either, though I've also seen people belaying with 'biners that they've either forgotten to lock or worked itself unlocked with some jostling on a long belay (myself included).

--Marc