Best Rappel Backup --- Can anyone tell me Why?

I'm relatively new to climbing. Since I was scared of rappelling I read up on rappel backups. Prusiks/autblocks/kleimheists seemed standard - but every source I saw recommended putting them below the belay device, on a leg loop. Can anyone tell me why this is?

After lots of thought I decided to set mine above the device. I clip it to the fourth or fifth loop of my daisy, so it rides 10-12" above. Tending it requires two hands, but it lets me A) see the hitch B) easily unweight/remove the belay device C) unweight the backup more easily after loading. Plus, I have a hard time imagining one below the device that wouldn't run the risk of sucking into it.

Also,
Wherever you want to put them, why don't people use them?

Given the relative precariousness of rappelling, it seems like the obvious thing to do. It takes two seconds to rig, true, but its really convenient for cleaning on rappel, freeing stuck lines, etc. Plus, it seems to me that most of the rappel accidents I've read about in ANAM would have been prevented by it. I'm obviously pretty new to the sport, but I haven't seen anyone else using one.
Does anyone have an opinion on why they seem unpopular?

you say you tend it with two hands this means you don't have any hands on the brake side of the rope?

By putting it below your rap device in a leg loop it's too short to get sucked into the belay device (if its the proper length) and it allows you to keep your hands on the brake side of the rope. It is a backup after all. From what I've seen people tend to way over wrap the autoblock (not a prusik) which makes for a really choppy descent. I use 4 or 5mm cord with three wraps.

Reasons I won't use one is if it's a short rappel or a rappel that I'm familiar with. If I'm cleaning a route I always use one and when I don't use one I'm normally getting a fireman's belay from below. I am a firefighter and we practice a lot of rappelling. I was never trained to use one then so I guess it's just a bad habit.

You could always extend your belay device higher up using your daisy also and then keep your autoblock below it where you can manage it and the brake side at the same time. I've never felt the need to do this but I have seen it done.

if it is rigged below your belay device it doesn't have to hold your whole body weight... just the amount needed by your break hand... and if the rappel is free and you weight the back-up, it will be hard to free it up (I would imagine)

Here's a question for you: What happens if you're rappelling with your back-up above you and a falling rock hits you and you let go of your back-up? Does it leave you hanging on a weighted friction knot without the ability to reach it? That sounds like trouble to me.

I use a backup friction knot below my device for the reasons above, but i prefer to extend the belay device a foot or so and attach the friction knot to my belay loop.

Extending the belay device does 2 things, and I'm sure if I word this incorrectly I'll be roasted but, it puts your belay device towards your center of mass- if you get knocked out you wont invert or are less likely to invert when the belay device is at your chest instead of your waist. Also, it keeps the device away from the backup- autoblock, prussik, etc. if your backup is long enough you can see the knot, but I dont see a reason to keep your eye on your backup since it`ll be in your hand, on the break strand anyway.

I was kind of taken aback that you stated you read in multiple places to place your backup below the belay device, yet you still decided to put it above...why bother reading up on it if your going to do your own thing?

Just put it below. Call me if you want an explanation.

RockinOut wrote:Extending the belay device does 2 things, and I'm sure if I word this incorrectly I'll be roasted but, it puts your belay device towards your center of mass- if you get knocked out you wont invert or are less likely to invert when the belay device is at your chest instead of your waist.

Yeah that makes no sense. What are you extending from? Unless it's a chest harness, you will be hanging from the exact belay loop. Whether it's attached to a belay device or sling, you are hanging from your belay loop.

Be careful using that daisy for extending your rappel. I'm not going to say that it is completely unsafe, but isn't ideal. Make sure you know how to clip your daisy. IMO, a double-shouler(48in/60cm) sling is much better for the job.

blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

I recommend an autoblock tied below to backup, for sure. It acts as a third hand in case your other two are needed, or if you are incapacitated. The autoblock is not a hitch to trust your life hanging off of, however it is quick to tie, and functions well. After all, if your hitch is tied below your belay device, then the hitch only has to hold the rope in the brake position. If you are extending your rappel, just attach your autoblock backup to your belay loop. There are likely a bunch of forums on this topic, or at least similar.

climbing.com/print/techtips…

Ideal Rappel set up:

Extend belay device out with a "cows tail". Use a double length sew runner, tie a knot in the middle, and girth one end to you harnss. Clip your rappell device in the section between the harness and the knot. The other half of the knot put another carabiner on to clip into the anchor(s). This middle knot can be adjusted farther or closer for comfort.

Now for the backup or "third hand". I use this 90% of the time. take a locking carabiner and put it on your leg loop ( some put it on their belay loop because it is extended out). Thread rope through device and then wrap a small prussik loop around brake end of rope three times and attach both ends to leg loop carabiner.

This system I have found to be most ideal because its very simple and clean, and you can go hands free at any moment. By having the "prussik" below the device, it acts as a "third hand" so you can use both of your hands for other things.

Putting it above the device doesnt quite make sense to me and seems rather unsafe and non redundant. Ideally you should have both hands below rope so you can ALWAYS break. But if you hav one hand above, then its not below to assist with breaking.

But, like all aspects of climbing, everyone has their own preferances. This is what I was taught and have found to work well for me.

MegaGaper2000 wrote:Tending it requires two hands, but it lets me A) see the hitch B) easily unweight/remove the belay device C) unweight the backup more easily after loading. Plus, I have a hard time imagining one below the device that wouldn't run the risk of sucking into it.

Practice using an autoblock below the device with a backup fireman's...you will find most of these concerns are are not valid (assuming you use the correct cord length).

MegaGaper2000 wrote:Plus, it seems to me that most of the rappel accidents I've read about in ANAM would have been prevented by it.

A backup does not prevent rapping off the end of the rope. I like to use a backup and it does add some extra safety, but it does not prevent all rappel accidents.

a few comments ...

- i use a daisy to extend ... you just need to be conscious to clip one pocket at a time ... im sure someone here will scream that im going to die ... at worst the ends are rated to full strength

- if you extend ... you can easily put the prussik off the belay loop ... i prefer this as it may save yr life if for some god forsaken reason you dont thread both ends of the rope through your atc/biner properly ... with the extension, the prussik hitting the belay device shoud be a non issue if you do it right

- i actually use a kleimhest or autoblock most of the time ... easier to tie/untie ... easier to shimmy down the rope

- the only time id put the prussik on top is if i know ill have to pass a knot ... this way the prussik on the top is already set up

a few comments ...

- i use a daisy to extend ... you just need to be conscious to clip one pocket at a time ... im sure someone here will scream that im going to die ... at worst the ends are rated to full strength

- if you extend ... you can easily put the prussik off the belay loop ... i prefer this as it may save yr life if for some god forsaken reason you dont thread both ends of the rope through your atc/biner properly ... with the extension, the prussik hitting the belay device shoud be a non issue if you do it right

- i actually use a kleimhest or autoblock most of the time ... easier to tie/untie ... easier to shimmy down the rope

- the only time id put the prussik on top is if i know ill have to pass a knot ... this way the prussik on the top is already set up

A three-wrap autoblock off a leg-loop with 5mm cord has worked best for me. I usually use thicker ropes, and the 5mm seems to be the best diameter. If you just pay attention to the cord length, it won't get hung-up in your device.
Knot your rope ends too..
Kudos for at least wanting to use a back-up, ANAM is definitely full of accidents that may have had a different outcome if a back-up were used. No one is perfect, but back-ups stack the deck in your favor. Cheers

bearbreeder wrote:a few comments ... - i use a daisy to extend ... you just need to be conscious to clip one pocket at a time ... im sure someone here will scream that im going to die ... at worst the ends are rated to full strength -

I won't scream that you're gonna die cause that's your business/decision. I will say that IMO it's less than ideal to use a daisy for anything but aid when a 48" sling is stronger, simpler and has multiple functions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58qWRr4LiBY

DannyUncanny wrote: Yeah that makes no sense. What are you extending from? Unless it's a chest harness, you will be hanging from the exact belay loop. Whether it's attached to a belay device or sling, you are hanging from your belay loop.

No youre not. When you extend the belay device the lock off point of the device is higher. The point in the rope that you are braking at is now higher. Dont think of it being where the belay device is attached. Think of how high up the rope you are braking. Next time you`re at the crag clip your belay device you your belay loop and then get your feet up high....you`ll invert. Now extend the device to your chest and try to put your feet above your head...you wont invert because the lockoff point on the rope is now at your center of mass.

RockinOut wrote: No youre not. When you extend the belay device the lock off point of the device is higher. The point in the rope that you are braking at is now higher. Dont think of it being where the belay device is attached. Think of how high up the rope you are braking. Next time you`re at the crag clip your belay device you your belay loop and then get your feet up high....you`ll invert. Now extend the device to your chest and try to put your feet above your head...you wont invert because the lockoff point on the rope is now at your center of mass.

Umm... No.

Extending your device does not change the relative locations of your CG and your connection to the device as the sling/daisy is not rigid. It does allow you to hold the brake side of the rope at a more stable location relative to your cg.

RockinOut wrote: No youre not. When you extend the belay device the lock off point of the device is higher. The point in the rope that you are braking at is now higher. Dont think of it being where the belay device is attached. Think of how high up the rope you are braking. Next time you`re at the crag clip your belay device you your belay loop and then get your feet up high....you`ll invert. Now extend the device to your chest and try to put your feet above your head...you wont invert because the lockoff point on the rope is now at your center of mass.

way off dude.

Go to Eli's site and read...
climbinglife.com/tech-tips/…
climbinglife.com/tech-tips/…
... and then practice.

RockinOut wrote: No youre not. When you extend the belay device the lock off point of the device is higher. The point in the rope that you are braking at is now higher. Dont think of it being where the belay device is attached. Think of how high up the rope you are braking. Next time you`re at the crag clip your belay device you your belay loop and then get your feet up high....you`ll invert. Now extend the device to your chest and try to put your feet above your head...you wont invert because the lockoff point on the rope is now at your center of mass.

You have no idea what you are talking about. All that matters in whether you flip over or not is your CG relative to your tie in points as long as you aren't using a chest harness.

To the OP, if you put your prussic above your device then you best have a way to unweight the prussic to release it should it grab. When you put an autoblock below the device you can release it with just your hands. Having to take your rappel device off the rope while on rappel is fairly uncommon as not many people regularly rappel past knots.

I use a short autoblock on the leg loop. I keep a pretied piece of 5mm cord for just this purpose on the back of my harness along with a small knife and a tibloc, basically a little biner of Houdini magic at the ready.

Putting a prussik above make it takes full body weight, and is harder to unstick once you've weighted it (especially if rapping with extra loads).

Further, in caving circles there is a phenomena referred to as "riding the prussik down". Basically speaking humans have an automatic clamp down response to sudden events. In the event that your rap device goes out of control there is a decent chance that your panic response will be to clamp down on your top prussik KEEPING IT FROM ENGAGING rather than clamping down on the rope, sending you to the bottom while leaving melted prussik cord all over the rope. By the way, this automatic clamp down response has been attributed to gri-gri drops where the belayer holding the cam down to feed slack erroneously clamps down on the cam during an unexpected fall rather than un-naturely letting go to let the device do its job (whole other thread...).

Now consider the exact same scenario with a prussik/autoblock/etc knot below your device. With both hands below your device (one brake hand, one to tend the knot), if your brake hand loses control either A) your knot locks up assuming you are giving it light tending or B) your hand clamps down on the knot and provides plenty enough friction to stop you even if the knot does not lock up. Basically by putting the backup below you assure that the panic response is more likely to save you than kill you. At least that is how the cavers you taught me to climb described it to me.