v-scale vs. climbing scale

I always thought it went this way:

V0=10a/b
V0+=10c/d
V1=11a

Most boulder problems are not on-sighted, but rehearsed. If you know the sequence, you can often do the moves. But moving onto a longer pitch trad climb, you need to develop the ability to find the moves as you climb. It's a different style of climbing and you need a different skill set. Practice..practice...but on longer routes; you'll get it.

Kia Marie wrote:do you have any suggestions for helping me get past my inhibitions when i'm on a rope? i've been working on my endurance, but i don't think that's the whole problem. i can't figure out how come i can do a v4 boulder problem, but struggle on 10d's. i'm definitely not a high recruiter. i can't even do one pull up.

Ever been to Castle Hill, you can do a V4 without having to ever pull at all. For that matter there's some V6 problems there too that you don't have to pull a single move they're just all push and prey that your rubber holds on the polish.

Jay Knower wrote: JJNS, where did you get this scale? It's different than the one I'm used to seeing. I've always thought it goes like this: V4: 5.12- V5: 5.12 V6: 5.12+ V7: 5.13- V8: 5.13 V9: 5.13+ V10: 5.14- etc...

As someone who's done just a few mid-12's and gotten on a couple 13's, this seems reasonable. Maybe a more accurate (but less precise) way to put the correspondence is:

On climbs rated 5.12, you can expect to encounter crux boulder problems from V4 to V6.

5.13 climbs will typically have crux problems in the V7-V9 range.

5.14 climbs will have cruxes in the V10-V13 range. (I'm guessing... since The Fly has been called V13).

Note that this mapping does not comment on what a "5.13 climber" should be able to boulder, but rather acknowledges that sport climbs can be broken down into combinations of problems.

Within a grade, there's a lot of wiggle room since length and sustained-ness come into play. For instance, at Rumney, Jedi Mind Tricks (12b) is a short route with a couple V5-ish problems. While Meltdown (12c/d) at Shagg doesn't really go above V4, yet gets a harder grade because it is more sustained. There's no clear formula, which is why I think we shouldn't be more specific than whole-number route grades.

Digging a little further, maybe we can make logical sense out of some of the subjectivity in grading.

Bottom Feeder (V7, 5.13a) seems to establish that the hardest crux problem for 13a is V7, since Bottom Feeder is so short. By contrast, take the hardest problem on Predator (13b) - V5 I've heard, and that might form the theoretical easiest crux problem for a 5.13, since it is a very endurance-focused route.

To get the full range of V-ratings for crux problems in the 5.13 range, we'd need the crux V-grade of a super-sustained 5.13 for the lower bounds, and the crux grade of a short, single-boulder-problem 5.13d (They Died Surfing... V9? Diesel...V8?). I imagine the V-range for crux problems in the 5.13 range would overlap a bit with 5.12 and 5.14.

Really, why bother comparing? If you know you can boulder V-5 and sport 5.11 and trad 5.9 does it really matter how they stack against each other? Bouldering is typically rated off the hardest move. Sport, a combination of length, difficulty and how sustained it is. Trad is much the same as sport but the way you look at the scale is different (because some of us know placing a piece of gear is much harder than clipping a bolt therefore pump increases as does fear of popping pro and decking). So again, it doesn't matter how they compare as long as you know how you do on each discipline.

P.S. some one have a conversion from V-grade to Ice? Hehe.

The two scales describe different things. The V-scale describes individual moves and YDS describes the overall difficulty to send with individual moves, pump factor, and commitment (dynos).

I love to describe routes with stacking V-moves. A route with 30 continuous V3 moves could possibly be a 5.12c where a route with 10 V0- moves and 1 v3 move and 10 more v0- moves could easily be a 5.11a or even 5.10d.

mattjbudd wrote:The two scales describe different things. The V-scale describes individual moves and YDS describes the overall difficulty to send with individual moves, pump factor, and commitment (dynos).

I've never heard it this way. I always understood V grades to rate the total challenge of a boulder problem, so a 20 move V10 has no single move as hard as the one move V10 on the next boulder. This conforms to my experience in most areas I've visited (admittedly limited to New England and a couple other spots).

In theory, the YDS was intended to rate the difficulty of the most difficult move on the route. In practice other factors (length, sustainedness) are taken into account.

Even for boulder problems, length is taken into account - roughly expressed by "The Equation" - climbingczar.louderthan11.c…

My goal in describing YDS-V correspondence was to make sense of my actual experience. Clearly YDS accommodates more than the V-scale. That is why I think of the correspondence as a range. It is useful to me to know that if I boulder V? , then I will probably be able to work through all the moves on routes in the range of 5.?-5.?. Actually linking the moves is a separate challenge.

One thing that seems to really complicate things and may indicate another basic problem with the grading system is that none of the conversions create linear/equal progressions. The conversion I like most (and seems to be very close to what everyone else is saying)is the V0=5.10+, V1=5.11-, V2=5.11, V3=5.11+....,V7= 5.13-. But, at the upper end, it no longer really works because V13 ends up as 5.15- and v16 ends up as 5.16-, but the top boulder problem is v16 and the top sport route is only 5.15b. Of course, we could go back into the argument of whether the conversion is for the crux or for the whole climb, but it seems that the consensus is that it should be for the climb as a whole.

So.... this leads me to wonder if perhaps high end boulder problem grades are more accurate than high end sport grades. Of course, I dont climb anywhere near these grades, so I can only speculate. But, it kinda seems to make sense, because it would be much easier for climbers to really work a boulder problem (no belayer, easier to start in the middle, etc...). This seems to be supported by the number of V15 repeats vs. 5.15 repeats. Finally, if this thinking is accurate, does this mean that sometime in the future, many of our 5.14d+ climbs will be upgraded a few notches, just as classic 5.10s are now a few grades higher than they were originally?

Jake N. wrote:One thing that seems to really complicate things and may indicate another basic problem with the grading system is that none of the conversions create linear/equal progressions. The conversion I like most (and seems to be very close to what everyone else is saying)is the V0=5.10+, V1=5.11-, V2=5.11, V3=5.11+....,V7= 5.13-. But, at the upper end, it no longer really works because V13 ends up as 5.15- and v16 ends up as 5.16-, but the top boulder problem is v16 and the top sport route is only 5.15b. Of course, we could go back into the argument of whether the conversion is for the crux or for the whole climb, but it seems that the consensus is that it should be for the climb as a whole. So.... this leads me to wonder if perhaps high end boulder problem grades are more accurate than high end sport grades. Of course, I dont climb anywhere near these grades, so I can only speculate. But, it kinda seems to make sense, because it would be much easier for climbers to really work a boulder problem (no belayer, easier to start in the middle, etc...). This seems to be supported by the number of V15 repeats vs. 5.15 repeats. Finally, if this thinking is accurate, does this mean that sometime in the future, many of our 5.14d+ climbs will be upgraded a few notches, just as classic 5.10s are now a few grades higher than they were originally?

I think most people would agree that a one-to-one correspondence is not useful. Clearly boulder grades describe different information than route grades. Bouldering V? doesn't mean you will be able to automatically sport climb 5.?? If it did, then we would have one comprehensive scale.

Jake N. wrote:So.... this leads me to wonder if perhaps high end boulder problem grades are more accurate than high end sport grades.

What do you mean by "accurate"? Accurate with respect to what?

"accurate" as in most everyone can agree on the grade.

i'm not saying that "one to one" correspondence is useful, just for the sake of conversation here, it seems that if any correspondence is useful, it would be "one to one" It doesnt make any sense at all that a v grade would cover 3 yds grades sometimes and one yds grade would be equivalent to 2 v grades elsewhere on the scale.

Kia Marie wrote:do you have any suggestions for helping me get past my inhibitions when i'm on a rope? i've been working on my endurance, but i don't think that's the whole problem. i can't figure out how come i can do a v4 boulder problem, but struggle on 10d's. i'm definitely not a high recruiter. i can't even do one pull up.

when i first started climbing i had the same problem, i could boulder all day but climbs were hard. first i would start to find lengthy climbs, real long routes. this will increase your endurance and all around strength , while maintaing that finger strength.
second, i would continue to boulder and hit the gym all the time so you dont forget that upper body strength, climbing long routes will put your legs to the test. and will challenge you to not trust in your upper body as much,

hope this helps, aaron

camhead wrote:Does anyone remember the humorous version of the V-scale that Verm wrote up a long time ago? v0 was something like "a problem that no matter how good it is, you'll never get on" v3 was "a problem that you ruthlessly wire so that you can call it your warmup" v13 was "a problem that Fred Nicole could flash, after you give him all the beta." Anyone remember that?

Here you go Cam:

A practical guide to applying the V-system
Copyright 1998 John Sherman

* V0 A problem you wouldn't admit to doing no matter how cool it was.
* V1 A problem you would admit to doing, if it had loose holds, a death
landing, and your partner backed off of it.
* V2 A problem, if cool enough, that you would recommend to others to
prove you're not a ratings snob.
* V3 A problem you ruthlessly wire and incorporate into your warm-up
routine, in the hopes that visiting partners will struggle on it.
* V4 A problem that might give you trouble, but "Hey, anything below V5 is
so easy I can't tell the difference."
* V5 A problem, if you were to live in Boulder, Colorado, that you might
actually flash.
* V6 A problem, if you were to live in Boulder, Colorado, that you would
expect your girlfriend to flash.
* V7 A problem you fell on repeatedly, but really, you could have flashed
it.
* V8 A problem you religiously avoid, because you're "saving it for the
flash."
* V9 A problem you have no chance of flashing.
* V10 A problem you knew you could have done, even though your spotter
took 10kg off for you, so you counted it anyway.
* V11 A problem, if flashed, that you might get free shoes for, but only
if you fax the mags this month.
* V12 A problem you would do if only your fingers were a bit smaller, your
reach a bit longer, your spotter more attentive, the weather more
amenable, your shoes not so blown out, your elbow not so sore from
training, the sun not in your eyes, and you didn't eat that funky
take-out Chinese the night before.
* V13 A problem commensurate with your well-published abilities, that you
deserve credit for, even though you didn't do it, because as the mags
reported, "It was too humid."
* V14 A problem only Fred Nicole could do, after you gave him the beta.

A 5.12a that is mostly easy, say 5.9, climbing, with an extremely short crux will basically be a V4 boulder problem. V4 is actually pretty darn hard in terms of technical/overall difficulty for the vast majority of the population.

It all depends on experience and where you climb too (and the style of roped climbing vs bouldering. After you work you way up a few 12a's (assuming you've done lots of V4's), you'll probably agree that they are similar in absolute difficulty.

I've only done a handful of V4's, been on a few 12a's (but only redpointed one). I also think that 12a can sometimes seem more difficult to get than V4, if the V4's you work are short and close to the ground (easy to work individual moves, and only a few on them), whereas working a 60+ foot roped 5.12a can take quite a bit more dedication of time and effort.

Also, it is only a ROUGH equivalence, but usually accurate to within +/- 2 letter grades or a V# grade.

lee hansche wrote:One thing i do find very helpful is the somewhat new-school way of breaking down sport climbs in to seperate boulder problems such as "climb a v4 opening move to a good rest then pull a v2 in to a v3, one more rest and a v6 move gaurds the anchor" something like that gives me a very clear idea af what i am up against...

I've never seen that before, but I like it. Most routes below 5.11 have some rests dividing up the cruxes and bouldery moves along the route. For me, I noticed that just practicing sport routes forced me to become more efficient at clipping (a big energy pit if you're inefficient), to watch my breathing and to find rests. I hate to say it, but just practice more, and you may find these to be your problem areas, too.

Loren Trager wrote: I've never seen that before, but I like it. Most routes below 5.11 have some rests dividing up the cruxes and bouldery moves along the route. For me, I noticed that just practicing sport routes forced me to become more efficient at clipping (a big energy pit if you're inefficient), to watch my breathing and to find rests. I hate to say it, but just practice more, and you may find these to be your problem areas, too.

Most route below 5.11 also have V0 or V1 cruxes...

JPVallone wrote:Bring back the B scale, Gill was on to something, LOL

Still the best scale ever!

But really, who cares how hard the pebble or a real climbing route is for that matter,

Either you can do it or you can't. We all have our own scale or level.

But what blows my mind is how many folks can't climb a 5.10 crack or offwidth but can wrestle a V whatever!

TLdr - However, I read the first few posts.

My .02 - there's a reason that boulder problems and routes are rated on different scales.

Price wrote:TLdr - However, I read the first few posts. My .02 - there's a reason that boulder problems and routes are rated on different scales.

Why is that, A move is a move, or isn't it?