SOUTHERN ARIZONA CLIMBING ETIQUETTE - XXX - January-------Subtracting bolts (Chop Chop)

I like what Paul wrote and am disturbed to see someone coming back stirring up the hornets nest.

I don't like the thought of long bolt ladders and don't endorse chiseling.

Should we flood the Sistine Chapel so that more can see the ceiling?
Should we build an escalator to the top of Everest so more can reach the third pole?

I believe that every person who puts in a bolt should weigh that responsibility carefully and to realize others have the right to take that bolt out.

Long live Cochise.

Daryl Allan wrote: FWIW (not much at this point) had i known this, I would not have voted for the chop.

For myself, the point of continuing this dialogue is to ensure that this sort of incident does not repeat itself. What's done is done, but unless we learn from our mistakes, we are doomed to repeat them. So, I think that rescinding your vote shows humility and is worth something.

Albert Newman wrote:I like what Paul wrote and am disturbed to see someone coming back stirring up the hornets nest.

You didn't have a problem with Geir and Jimbo committing the biggest vigilante chopping in southern Arizona in the last decade, creating bitter division within the community, and then being unwilling to honestly answer any questions about it, yet when someone examines their actions in a non-inflammatory way, you call that "stirring up the hornets nest." Your bias toward Geir and Jimbo is obvious.

Albert Newman wrote:I don't like the thought of long bolt ladders and don't endorse chiseling.

I don't think anyone endorses chiseling. Portarying this dialogue as an issue of approval/disapproval for chiseling is nothing more than an attempt to obscure the discussion and prevent anything productive from coming to fruition.

Dislike of a thought implies how you feel. You might want to consider using critical thinking skills to assess these issues, instead of your feelings.

Albert Newman wrote:Should we flood the Sistine Chapel so that more can see the ceiling? Should we build an escalator to the top of Everest so more can reach the third pole?

If you feel so strongly against a bolt ladder on a rock formation you have never touched (see later section), I can't imagine how you feel about all the via ferratas in Europe. You hyperbole is maxed out and does not make your argument any stronger. If anything, your over-the-top rhetoric weakens and shows it to be of little substance.

Albert Newman wrote:I believe that every person who puts in a bolt should weigh that responsibility carefully and to realize others have the right to take that bolt out.

I agree, and doubt there is anyone who disagrees with the first part of your statement. Again, this is empty rhetoric. As for the second part, I do not think that there exists an unequivocal and ubiquitous right to remove bolts, in terms of the law.

Aleix wrote:I go to Cochise Stronghold, and specially to the Rockfellow dome, because it's a place that makes me dream and inspires me. I go there for the wild feelings and the imposing and daring nature of the place. It's a place where those who came before had to challenge and push themelves to get up things ground up. I'm not much of a climber these days, but even when I was a stronger climber I knew there are routes in there that I will never be able to climb, ever. And I like that. It's a place that humbles and inspires me, and it would be nice to keep it that way, for myself, my many friends who share these feelings, and specially for future generations.

Albert Newman wrote:Aleix,Your comment sums it perfectly for me even though I have never touched this formation. I suspect many of the people on this chat agree with your position.

The fact that you have never touched Rockfellow Dome, yet adopted others' personal opinions and feelings on it, demonstrates how you jumped on Geir and Jimbo's bandwagon. I do not believe that, in order to understand these issues, one must have climbed on Rockfellow Dome. However, I do think that someone who writes with such strong rhetoric would base their words off of some of their own thoughts (or at the very least, feelings), instead of mimicking others'.

Basejumper, the common def'n of a bolt ladder is an A1 clip up, something like the Headwall on the Nose. Shangri-La is anything but a bolt ladder, ditto for many of your other examples. There are many major pieces of stone without Bolt Ladders on them. Saying "They all do" is incorrect. (I think you meant Black Velvet ?)

The point I'm making is that Rockfellow did not have a bolt ladder on it until the route under discussion went up. And putting an A1 clip up in amongst the climbs that were there is a sad thing from my perspective and I suspect from the majority of climbers with much experience.

But seriously Dan, do you have a clue how your writing comes acroos?
There are so many contradictions and assumptions in your posting.
It's especially odd how you have to manufacture inflammatory statements where they don't exist so that you can then berate Albert about being inflammatory. It's even stranger when you tell him to use critical thinking skills after a statement like "Dislike of a thought implies how you feel."

I do thank you for the really good laugh I got from:
"...committing the biggest vigilante chopping in southern Arizona in the last decade, creating bitter division within the community, and then being unwilling to honestly answer any questions..."
followed up by
"yet when someone examines their actions in a non-inflammatory way... yada yada again"

Nothing at all inflammatory about accusing others of being the biggest vigilantes, liars and creators of bitter divisions.

Albert said:
"I believe that every person who puts in a bolt should weigh that responsibility carefully..."

That's a very straight forward statement. Nothing rhetorical about that but your response is to say: "Again, this is empty rhetoric. ..., I do not think that there exists an unequivocal and ubiquitous right to remove bolts, in terms of the law."

Only to then close with a statement so assumptive it's laughable.
You really don't know Jack about how/where Albert climbs.
I'll go out on a limb here and make the assumption that Albert especially agreed with:
"because it's a place that makes me dream and inspires me. I go there for the wild feelings and the imposing and daring nature of the place. .... It's a place that humbles and inspires me, and it would be nice to keep it that way...." (well put Aleix!)

Instead of availing yourself of the chance to reflect on that writing, as Albert obviously did, you choose instead to attempt to put Albert down by accusing him of having no thoughts of his own and being a mocking bird.

In the end, your posting accomplishes nothing except to show how illogical and contradictory are your thought processes. Or to put it in plain english; your posting once again shows just what a freaking tool you truly are.

^^^^^^^^^^^^
+1

Dan it is obvious I am no match for your logic. That does not prevent me from standing by my earlier statement.

I saw how you bashed Ms Cuddlebunny (before the post was deleted) and hope you at least consider that you are equally as outrageous and inflammatory.

It is my humble opinion certain areas of the world should be preserved in their natural state - even if I will never get the opportunity to visit them. Call this selfish and shred apart my thinking, but I do not want the entire world to look like New York City.

It is my belief that any person who places a bolt on public land should consider that decision carefully. Any person who leaves garbage on public land should realize that others may come along to clean it up.

And for my next trick I would like to show you a picture of Paul and Newman's on line interaction interpreted in a modern dance.

If you want to see the dance in it's entirety you will have to click on the link.

youtube.com/watch?v=eT4fw24…

I was personally really proud of the climbing community for moving on. Almost 2 months of silence : Good work everyone for letting this pile of manure sit.

10 pages... - if it ain't in there already = I don't think that it needs to be said. Please let it die. I believe that the last comment has been written several times in different ways throughout the thread. By posting it again it brings the topic up to the top of the list and I do not want to see anymore.

Lets not have 5 more pages of saying the same crap as a retaliation.

PLEASE and Thank You!

Carter-Aaron wrote:I was personally really proud of the climbing community for moving on. Almost 2 months of silence : Good work everyone for letting this pile of manure sit. 10 pages... - if it ain't in there already = I don't think that it needs to be said. Please let it die. I believe that the last comment has been written several times in different ways throughout the thread. By posting it again it brings the topic up to the top of the list and I do not want to see anymore. Lets not have 5 more pages of saying the same crap as a retaliation. PLEASE and Thank You!

Not all manure is bad, let me tell you. Furthermore, this thread should be titled, "Southern Arizona has no climbing Etiquette", it would be much more realistic.