New Mexico rock modification discussion

I blame the Duke City Climbing Gym for all chipping and gluing in NM. That place was so bad that climbing anything outside seemed like a good idea no matter how hacked-up, mungy, or glued. I say this only partially in jest as many of the rock-modification posse came out of Duke City, except for the leather-jacketed kingpin in Santa Fe! I climbed there a ton, as did Tom when he was in town. I still like all those folks, including Timy (seeing them makes me think of living fossils in today's world); we just don't have the same perspective on this issue.

Mark, I hope school and biking are going well. Yeah, you were one of the "others" I mentioned, but I wasn't going to post your name without you being public about this issue. We've talked about it plenty in the past and I know that Timy often gets all the blame because he is the only one who has been honest about his actions. I admire his candor (and yours now), just not the actual chipping and gluing. It does seem odd though that if, as Antagonist seems to indicate, there is acceptance in NM for chipping (or at least gluing), that folks would need to keep quiet about doing it.

I respect your apologies for gluing and chipping if it had affected someone's project or area they were developing. However, even if someone had not been to those areas before, the rock modification still represents a loss of somebody's future crag or bouldering area. It's not clear from your posts what New Mexico crags have matured into, as the same rock modification seems to be occurring now, but I hope some things have changed. If nothing else at least our premier crag is no longer Cochiti!

BTW, I haven't been to the Range in the years since the road closure and no longer smoke (sweet), but I will always pick up any cigarette butt I see even if it stinks up the pack :)

Antagonist, you've never responded directly to the illegal nature of the rock modification and always fall back on the convenience argument (aka the daddy-distance response). That is fully weak sauce, rhetorically and otherwise. You may have been born in NM, but your climbing history is poor as evidenced by the comments on the corridor problem. Handholds and footholds have broken on this in the past--amazingly I and others did the line before the glue appeared--and the problem still remained. Contending with something as it evolves is part of the experience--deal with it.

"Tom, if you really think the corridor problem and jito would go without those glued feet than we truly do live in different worlds. Jito uses those feet exclusively and without them that problem would be much, much, much harder. Not the classic we all know and love."

We live in the same world. It is just that I am not afraid of either of those problems becoming harder. Not necessarily because I think I could do them but because I am OK with having a challenge beyond my perceived talent. I have no problem accepting my limitations with rock climbing. My ego is not so fragile that I need to change it to suit my strength (or weakness if you will). But if the feet broke off naturally and I could still own up to the challenge and send... I prove to myself that I am a better climber than before. You see, climbing natural lines is more in tune with what climbing is really about. Adapting yourself to new ways of thinking and movement. Trying things which seem impossible at first but not giving up. As soon as you start adding holds where "you" need them the game is over. You lose. You become a loser(in my opinion).
What is your comment on new lines going up right next door to your glue? None? Afraid to admit that maybe your statements of there not being any good rock is just a scape goat for "accepting" manufactured shit piles? Go for a hike and climb something in the foothills. You don't even need to clean the holds or cut any bushes if you don't want to. But stop piping in here with nanny excuses if your not willing to venture more than 5 minutes from your car.

Hey William, congrats on quitting.

Pretty sure the Corridor Problem would not be all that much harder without any of the glued feet since you can heelhook the start hold after one hand movement. Though maybe easier for shorties and pretzels. I have no comment on Jito since I have not done it or really tried since I have no desire to circumcise my fingers.

Additionally who is to say that all the feet would have deteriorated and disappeared had they not been glued?

I AM TRULY SORRY. What else can I say? I was teasing about the cigs.(I knew it was a sensitive issue) I WAS told Roy was better than Hueco and I got so excited that went there the next day. I am sorry if my opinion on the place is different than yours. I just wasn't that impressed.

I can't go back and fix what I did; it's done. I can only say I apologize to future climbers that had good lines ruined, but I AM NOT APOLOGIZING TO PEOPLE THAT DID THE SAME THING. I can honestly say I'VE STOPPED. The last thing I glued was a loose block on the right side of Big Block to try and keep the integrity of the problem, but I am so far out of the loop that I didn't realize it had become so sensitive an issue OR I WOULD NOT HAVE DONE IT.

However it gets read, my explanation is not a justification, but I though this was a forum. IT SEEMS AS THOUGH ONE CAN'T ANYTHING WITHOUT BEING ATTACKED. I don't mind being attack, in many cases, I probably deserve it. I have never visited a site like this before and still would be in the dark if someone had not sought me out about this one.

As to people that reprimanded me in the past, Lee Sheftel was the only one that wasn't actively chipping themselves.

I AM SORRY I USED SIKA AND CHISELS!!! I'M SORRY, SORRY, SORRY!!!!!!

Sincerely,
Mark Dowdy

Mark, why do you feel like your under attack? Why are you SHOUTING?!
I am sorry you didn't like Roy. I think it's better than Hueco 'cause it's free and there is no crowd.
Peace

One more thing, I helped glue Big Block several years ago, maybe close to 10 years, glue mound MORE than 10, and many of you have seen me since then, WHY NOW? Not attacking, just asking. (Is this really about what happened at the screaming jihad, bat cave, and the dirt wall, in other words, Timy ?)

-Dowdy

I shouting because I AM that sorry.

-D

It really did have to do with Screaming Jihad. After I saw what had happened there I was very upset but instead of getting super angry I decided to investigate the public opinion on climbing ethics. I met with Jean and he and Moira and I spent a day out at Cochiti, I interviewed him and we climbed old "chipped" routes. It was super fun and he helped me see his perspective while I shared mine. Much the way I have tried conversing with Timy on many past occasions. I then approached Tim, again, but he pulled one of those freakout moments with yelling about politics and nonsense justification. So, I let it drop. If Jeremy hadn't made the comment that lead to this thread I probably would have let it stay. And here we are.
In the end, it really is not that important. I just hate hearing the bullshit excuses(Mark, this is not directed at you) about not having enough rock to climb or the rock is too shitty. With all the rock around here a little hiking can go a long way. If you chip don't act all altruistic, admit you did it out of your own greed. Gluing is a much stickier mess that I would prefer not to get caught up in.
Mark, if you ever want to go back out to Roy and climb some truly great problems just let me know and I will show you around(Ted has been bugging me about it so maybe we should pull an old school weekend of boulders and beer). It is worth a trip.
Tom

I have reread this stuff several times now and I think we should keep going. I know to some that sounds absurd, but I believe the pettiness will die off and a real dialouge will come out of it. I think we should keep it in the "family", and I highly doubt anyone looks at this except the few hardcore climbers who feel strongly about it and some browsers.

I love my friend Timy, but we all know quite well his feelings. I have many of the same feelings, but I realize that I am not the only one who climbs in this state. We are the people that have hike endless hours looking for good lines ( I don't know how I missed finding the Jihad). Most don't develop lines or look for them, they just go climb what others develop.

When I lived in El Paso (1994) someone began chipping old established lines at Hueco apparently to make the easier. I was very angry, as were many others, since it seemed unnecessary considering the huge amounts of good rock. But I feel differently about BigBlock. They seem like two totally different situations to me, but maybe others don't see it like that. Its totally hypocritical of me, but I consider the context also.

Out of respect, I have always believed that the developers got to decide, but now I am not so sure. I know that some people will use little superglue since it is nearly impossible to detect and isn't shockingly ugly. Which I think isn't a big deal, but others? Who knows?

For instance, I don't like it at U-mound, but helped develop Parkside (glue-mound). Hypocritical, yes. I also like the Squat, but was pissed when the Temple got Sika, and called my boy immediately and we had it out (with love of course). Why? The lines were well established by then and I thought it was ugly.

Without this forum some newer climbers may think that it is okay to chip well established lines which would probably anger many locals. Newbies may think the chipping is the same as gluing? Is it? Newbies may think chipping is making climbing easier, but many people chip to make things harder. Nevertheless, chipping established lines happens more than many climbers realize. I think it disrespectful to the FA climber.

What if hold breaks off a well known and well liked climb and can be repaired without detection? Should it be done? I don't know because really I can only testify for myself.

But I think for those who may read this, but are afraid to post (could you blame them) will benefit and reconsider their opinions.

-Dowdy

I am not from Albuquerque but I have always been a fan of clean and traditional climbing. On the other hand I dont know the situation so I dont really have an opinion here. One thing I will say, however, is that I always liked how there was an understood rule in climbing to respect the established climbing etiquette at any given spot. If people started gluing and chipping in Unaweep (where a fairly bare-bones style of very little fixed gear has been established) I would be pretty upset.

antagonist69 wrote:I am still waiting for replies about the legality issue from William.

Antagonist, as your lawyer I will have to wait until getting back from a business trip to comb the CFR for the appropriate regulations. Meantime you should keep up the self-incrimination ;)

Eric brings up an excellent point--many of us developers keep mum on foothills boulder stashes to avoid the chisel or glue that might follow.

W

"I wonder if 20 somethings that pull hard are reading this thread and thinking I hope I'm not that whiney and self-centered when I get to 40. "

I guess I must be pretty dense because I don't understand this response (not just from you Bill). I certainly don't see my perspective as selfish considering the line in question was way out of my reach. I see chipping as a very selfish response.

"Proud lines on great, solid, reasonably non-sharp rock are a rare find, and you get to actually spend your time climbing!"

Come on! Really, you too. Such a load of bull. Bill do you want to go up to La Cueva tomorrow and see the new lines waiting for you. It is only about 12 minutes of walking. They are proud and the rock is great. The glue is not as necessary as many think and the chipping is never "needed". Am I whining?

Antag:
"I am still interested in what the community thinkgs about these specific glued feet."

Are you paying attention to how many people so far have responded to you? I just want to be sure you read the thread this time.

I've been following this thread since its inception and wasn't going to chime in until Billiam called out the 20 somethings. I am a 20 something and I climb with Tom and William on occasion, so perhaps I have been brainwashed and my opinion is invalid. That being said, fuck chipping and gluing. I know that a lot of problems and routes have been chipped and glued in New Mexico and that doesn't mean I won't get on them because I don't think it helps to boycott a climb after the fact, but it does get to me on some level. With the difficulty that some climbers have reached within the last few years it's really difficult to make the argument that chipping "creates lines" or that with out glue a certain hold would break and cause the line to be unclimbable. I also don't agree that chipping and gluing are anything like cleaning and bolting and trail cutting. The latter parts of development all go to provide uniform, safe environments for climbers and maintain access. If we didn't cut trails and have some of the nice ones like we do in the foothills there would be a lot more vegetation destroyed from people finding their own way to the boulders.

Also, of course bolted lines could be climbed without the bolts, but who here is going to do that? It's not safe. Chipping and gluing don't add to the safety of a problem or route, therefore are unnecessary, an eye-sore, and just wrong. The idea that cleaning lichen has a huge environmental impact is garbage. I was just looking at a problem in the foothills that hadn't been climbed in a while. Had the lichen been cleaned when it was originally sent? of course. Had it been 1k years since someone had climbed it? No, being conservative it had to be less than 5 years ago. When I looked at it the boulder looked like it had never been climbed. There was lichen on almost every inch of it and absolutely zero chalk.

As far as the actual reason this thread was started, I haven't looked at Screaming Jihad and I don't know the laws surrounding chipping and gluing in wilderness areas, but even if it is legal, it had been sent before the chipping so why chip? No excuses. Get stronger or face defeat, don't be selfish and modify the rock just so you can climb it. Rock climbing is a selfish enough sport without all this garbage.

Bill, I am sorry to hear you are injured. At our age it is always more crushing as it can take too long to heal. Maybe some sandstone slopers could be therapeutic.
A couple of the new lines are on par with Little Drummer Boy and there is enough relative climbing to make it a nice crag.

Antag:
"So instead of declaring a premature victory for one side, let's give it some time and actually give people the room for discussion. Instead what you do is attempt to shut the opposition down within ten minutes of them posting with pomp and emotional outbursts."

I was not declaring "victory", just wanted you to read the thread and keep up to date. People had responded but you claimed you were still waiting. Your responses often do not relate to anyones direct question or comment except to point out how "berating" I am or that I am a bully or whatever other nonsense makes up your brainwaves. There was a new response just before you by Brototype that you completely glanced over without response. Tunnel vision...

Brototype:
"As far as the actual reason this thread was started, I haven't looked at Screaming Jihad and I don't know the laws surrounding chipping and gluing in wilderness areas, but even if it is legal, it had been sent before the chipping so why chip?"

Just to clarify: It is the direct start into S Jihad that has been chipped (Which had been tried in its natural state). Not the old line.

""Come on! Really, you too. Such a load of bull. Bill do you want to go up to La Cueva tomorrow""

I was just referring to the number of people on this forum who have used poor rock as the primary justification. Not meant as an insult to you, just a "come on Bill we have seen some good rock together!" sort of comment. Again, bad intonation via interwebal.

"Rock climbing is a selfish enough sport without all this garbage."

"I am nominating this as the best quote of the thread."

+1

Oh yeah, this is some whiny shit. I know I could lighten up but you are the one calling me emotional..... Did I hurt you or something? Are you one of my ex-girlfriends? When Moira finds out...

Antag:
I am paying attention, Tom, and since I am not taking everything personally like you are, I have the ability to think about it instead of to just respond to the thread with grandiose emotion. I find it very funny you still don't understand that my position is to actually probe the community as to what they think about this situation and not to promote a specific platform. I have never promoted a specific platform throughout this entire thread. As close as I have come to a position is saying that I appreciate some of the climbs that have been developed for me by others, and further sating that I believe gluing is in a different camp of modification from chipping. I count your vote, Eric's vote, and Lee didn't really give one but I can assume what it would be based on his comments. Other than that there has not been as much to preen aboout as you are stating. Perhpas DJ kyote would like to comment? Or Mark? I vote that those holds were worth gluing at that speficif time period and am happy that they were. So instead of declaring a premature victory for one side, let's give it some time and actually give people the room for discussion. Instead what you do is attempt to shut the opposition down within ten minutes of them posting with pomp and emotional outbursts. Let's give some other people the chance to weigh in without the fear of beratment from the great Tom."

I've been trying to let the "younger" generation hash this out, but I do know something about the laws involved.
I've asked an old friend if I can share some of what he has told me and if I get the a-ok, I'll post up some more involved stuff.

But the bottom line is this: destruction of federal resources is against the law. Chipping is considered destruction. Rock is considered a resource. Ergo, chipping is illegal. Q.E.D.

This comes from a source who knows the federal laws because he deals with them day in and day out and not from the private sector side.
We're not talking about a just released law tyke but a battled hardened old goat.

Paul, here is a law many of you old timers ignored and have lead to many of Williams biggest mistakes. You know he really looks up to you and Bob.

"ALL VISITORS
Being publicly nude is prohibited. Publicly nude means: nude in any place where a person may be observed by another person. Any person is nude if the person has failed to cover the rectal area, pubic area or the genitals. A female person is also nude if she has failed to cover both breasts below a point immediately above the top of the areola. Coverings must be fully opaque. Children under the age of 10 years are considered publicly nude."

Please stop. This is not in-line with the current ethic.

I glued pasties on my areola to get around this law. Does this make me a hypocrite?

I think it makes you a "stycotite" or is it "nypocrite"

Antag, you just don't really get it do you? Your entire argument is predicated on the idea that chipped routes or problems wouldn't be there if they hadn't been chipped. I contend that this isn't true. Also, who says I would actually enjoy the route/problem? Finally, I don't know a single person who hates chipping and gluing who doesn't climb on chipped for glued problems. The amount of chipping and gluing that occurred in the past in this state makes it very difficult not to, especially at places like big block, the temple, u mound, etc. I think it's foolish to think that just because I don't agree with it means I should climb those problems. It's a fully useless endeavor not to. All I can do is voice my opinion and hope it doesn't happen in the future. I can't change what happened in the past.