single rope or twins/half rope

ok gents, i just got a sweet new job, i'll be guiding on a via ferrata at nelson rocks in wv, so after guiding all day i'll be able to climb on the fins, which is full of bookoos of multi pitch sport and trad lines, some of them are quite long and wandering.

so i've begun the search for a new rope, i need something durable, as i'll be using it 5 days a week, and i know i'll be wanting something in the 70 meter range, so heres what i was thinking, either a 70m single rope, or, a pair of 70 meter half/twin ropes

so thats whats up guys, lemme know what you think
thanks

If you're going to punish the rope, just get a good single. add a tag-line, if needed

what exactly is the deal with tag lines? do you do an edk and run both through the rappel device, or let the knot but against the anchors and rap down the actual climbing line?

what size rope would be best? i really think with as much as we'll be climbing it'll be toast after the summer anyway so should i go sub 10mm?

+1 for single

arm-jammer wrote: or let the knot but against the anchors and rap down the actual climbing line?

A climber recently died in Yosemite rappelling off of Serenity Crack this way.

See the Rock and Ice Accident Report

If you plan on using these techniques I encourage you to find someone who knows them first-hand and not learn them solely through an online forum.

Be safe, have fun. Sounds like a cool job!

I would get a single 70m main line and perhaps a second tag line.

Since you said you want to do multi-pitch sport, you probably don't want to deal with the hassle of double ropes for that (although, I suppose twin ropes would be fine).

If you do decide to get doubles/twins, I would guess 60m is enough, since you can rap 60m then... very few places require 70m raps.

As for the tag line, it depends on how thin you go. Personally, I just use one of my double ropes for that if needed and rap on both strands. In canyoneering I have used very thin rope, where you use a 'biner block at the anchor and rap on a single strand and just use the tag to pull the rope. I would not rap just using the knot as a stopper as people have died that way when the knot has gotten pulled through the anchor. It is amazing how under force a knot can go through a fairly small hole.

The canyoneering wiki page shows an excellent, safe way of doing a 'biner block:
canyonwiki.com/wiki/index.php/'biner_block

Obviously, a thin pull line is much less weight to carry and costs a lot less then a thicker tag line. However, in the event of an emergency, it is pretty useless, whereas with a thin double/twin rope, you could still climb and rap off the tag line.

I'll go 9.6 to 10.6 with an 8 tag. flat overhand/edk. rap with both lines in the device.

If you go use something like a gri and need to do single strand raps, bight another knot from the tag and clip it to your rap strand.

Just got the edelrid apus, which can be used as either twin or double ropes. Cant guess on longevity, but they are holding up well so far(3 weeks). So far have been super happy on everything from long wandering rock routes to multipitch ice. Just my $.02.

apeman e wrote: Luckily, Julius who posted after you posted a link where the OP can learn the biner block from the internet. which is fine. *gasp*

Yo Apeman, thanks for the reality check, brah.

Click Julius' link then click my link and tell me which was a more informative experience

Thanks for your contribution

DFrench wrote: Click Julius' link then click my link and tell me which was a more informative experience

Have to admit DFrench has a point here. Still, it's only because Julius's link was busted. Let me try and post it again: biner block (canyonwiki)

Also, here's the thread on Supertopo about the Yosemite accident. Starting around post 220 it get's more and more into the biner block method, with Clint doing a great pictorial a couple pages later of with and without biner block. Supertopo biner block, yosemite accident

Lastly, as a correction to Mark's post above, likely just a mistype anyway, you want the bight for the biner block to be from the main rap line, not the pull line. Just as a rule.

Apeman, glad I could give you something to beat your chest over.

You are a shining example of the wealth of knowledge and leadership that can be found on the average 'how-to' climbing forum.

If you are using it for guiding get a beefy single. If you are using it for recreation (b/c presumably you will be using company gear to guide???) the I would get doubles/twins.

If you go the 2 rope route, get a pair of 60s rated as both doubles and twins. I have been using a pair of PMI Arete 8.1 mm ropes for a while now and have found them to be quality cords and very durable for the size/type. However there are certainly other quality cords out there.

-Mike

Edited to correct my lack of attention to the OP's second post.

DFrench wrote: A climber recently died in Yosemite rappelling off of Serenity Crack this way. See the Rock and Ice Accident Report If you plan on using these techniques I encourage you to find someone who knows them first-hand and not learn them solely through an online forum. Be safe, have fun. Sounds like a cool job!

I don't get what the point of having a tag line, tying the tag line, but then rappelling off one side is. I see how the tag enables the pull, but why not just thread both through your belay device. If it's there, why not use it?

Scott, I think the idea of this system is to avoid hanging your weight off of an EDK that is composed of two very different diameter ropes (a big lead line and a small tag line). This might weaken the knot or make it more likely to roll.

In this Reepschnur method (which I have never used) it seems that your body weight is on the lead rope alone, with the knot being jammed at the small opening of the quicklink and is therefore much less likely to roll.

Neither one sounds ideal to me, but I've never felt the need to shave the pounds to the extent of using a tag line over a double rope system.

Edit: Just realized that the only situation when this trick may be a benefit is when you need to make full rappels on a belay device that takes only a single strand, like the Grigri or the Cinch, which is what Brian Ellis was doing when he fell.

Thanks for the clarification. I'd probably rather tie 4 foot tails before I'll want to rap off a jammed knot. I would imagine even with the back up it would be a scary realization, even if it was a few feet before it caught.

Having a full strength tag line (8mm +) is advantageous because you can set up the rap so you pull the fat rope every time. Much faster and less work to pull, and I find that skinny ropes are less likely to get caught up in crack systems as they come tumbling down.

If you're rapping on one rope using the biner block method, you're pulling the skinny rope every time. Trying to pull a 10.2 rope through the rings while you're gripping a 5mm cord can be epic if you've got the slightest rope drag. And if your lead line gets hung up in a tree when you pull it you're basically S-O-L, since the only thing you've got to lead with is a 5mm static line.

If you have an 8mm line it's faster just to tie the suckers together and feed them alternately from rap station to rap station.

I definitely agree that pulling a fatty rope with a skinny one is a workout - but typically when using a thin rap cord you're not out there with a 10.2 as well... more like 9.5 or 9.2... I mean the point is weight savings here, right? There are tricks to pulling thin cords as well (wrapping around stem of camalot etc), but the most important is being wise about setting up your raps so the ropes don't get stuck. Also, while shit does happen, as long as you get the knot of the lead line you are still in the game... be it rope soloing up to free whatever is stuck, to just finishing the raps on the dinky 6mm or whatever you have. Sucks to think about, but if you're in a crap situation, that's what you do. The point of super thin rap cords is to afford you either the ability to rap in situations where you optimally wouldn't (so the plan is to go up and over, but emergency surfaced and now you need to rap) or when you're pushing the limits of light and fast to ensure that you make it up up the route. Neither of these sound like they apply to the OP's situation.

OP, maybe check out what the standard rap lengths are there in the area, or at least the trade route rap lines, and go from there.

the longest one is around 276', off the headwall, that has a couple other stations on the way down, others are anywhere from just a single pitch rap, to about 200' standard, witha few in between, i have some concern about the rappelling, but my biggest concern is about the wandering routes, as many sport lines as there are there, im probably going to be focusing more on the gear routes while im there...

hate to link it but theres nothing on here about nelson, so heres where i'll be at to give you an idea

rockclimbing.com/routes/Nor…

Is this going to be your only rope? I personally prefer to have the option of a single or double rope, depending on the climb. Long, wandering multi-pitch with a bunch of rappels? Double ropes of the 60m variety. Cragging? or straight forward multi-pitch with a walk off or option for single rope rappels? 70m single rope.

If you can afford it I say go with both options. Or get a 70m single line and get a single 8mm double rope and use it as a full strength pull cord. You never know when you are going to have to climb on or jug up with your pull line. It is nice to know it can actually save your life.

Word of advice; when rapping on different diameter ropes have the tie the knot on the side of the smaller cord.
IE: big rope:anchor:knot:small rope
There can be enough drag on the big rope that if the knot is on its side the bigger rope will pull the smaller rope with it. It is a simple and easy to make mistake that might just kill you.

Ryan Hill wrote:Is this going to be your only rope? I personally prefer to have the option of a single or double rope, depending on the climb. Long, wandering multi-pitch with a bunch of rappels? Double ropes of the 60m variety. Cragging? or straight forward multi-pitch with a walk off or option for single rope rappels? 70m single rope. If you can afford it I say go with both options. Or get a 70m single line and get a single 8mm double rope and use it as a full strength pull cord. You never know when you are going to have to climb on or jug up with your pull line. It is nice to know it can actually save your life. Word of advice; when rapping on different diameter ropes have the tie the knot on the side of the smaller cord. IE: big rope:anchor:knot:small rope There can be enough drag on the big rope that if the knot is on its side the bigger rope will pull the smaller rope with it. It is a simple and easy to make mistake that might just kill you.

might take a look at that option, i like the looks and price of the metolius 7.8 monster for the beginning, then eventually picking up a nice 70meter...thanks for the ideas guys. anyone have any experience with the metolius lines?

Ryan Hill wrote:Word of advice; when rapping on different diameter ropes have the tie the knot on the side of the smaller cord. IE: big rope:anchor:knot:small rope There can be enough drag on the big rope that if the knot is on its side the bigger rope will pull the smaller rope with it. It is a simple and easy to make mistake that might just kill you.

There's another way to keep the skinny rope from slipping through the device faster than the fat rope. Whoever is going to rappel last can set up their ATC on the ropes. Then whoever is rapping first gets on rappel below that. The ATC above basically locks the ropes in place so the ropes won't slip through the anchors. Then when the first down gets reaches the anchor below, they can hold on to the skinny rope and provide a little extra tension on that rope as the second rappels (or even fix the skinny line to the anchor below if you want to completely close the system).

Saves you from having to break your back pulling the skinny line every rappel.