Dear Shelf Road Chiseler:

You make good points Ben. I feel I did ask the question in a polite manner first.

To Ben. I am sick of the same old argument that speaking out might lead to closures and that those speaking out will be equal to blame. Do you thing journalists are equally responsible for the crimes they report? Or commentators? Where should we discuss it? Seeing as how most "manufacturers" try to stay off the radar (out of guilt) and hide when their dirty work is found.
I have been thinking about just cutting out the middle men and going straight to the Park Service (here in New Mexico) to start dialog about stricter penalties for defacing public lands.
Chipping is cowardly. If you cannot climb the rock then just leave it alone and find a better way to pump your ego. Not all rocks are meant to be climbed.

With that said I think it is amazing how many threads on this site as well as most climbing sites are dedicated to this topic at the moment. A lot of climbers do care about the condition of the rock and that it stays as true to nature as possible.
To the Wyoming guy. Screw you. The old routes I can accept. Different time and old ethics. What is going on at Ten Sleep by the new generation is just sickening. All the rock you could ever ask for but you still cannot meet nature on its own terms. Cowardly and pathetic.

Nothing personal Ben but I am not so interested in meeting on the phone. I respect your opinions but must say I don't think this is just a state to state thing. As I tried to point out it is relevant throughout our community. I am not trying to get directly involved in your crag (although many of us Albuquerque folk climb in Shelf regularly). You again said to talk to the accused face to face but failed to respond to my statement about contact with said person when they usually prefer to stay in hiding until their next attack on the rock.

I'll post wherever I want. Everyone one here is complaining about a chipped hold that makes a climb better. You go to a cliff and everyone is lined up waiting to get on the 5 star climbs. The five stare climbs at shelf are the ones that climb like a gym climb, but when a person or an individual goes and makes a climb that way everyone get mad.

In the presence of water the fool is thirsty. Everyone is saying that at shelf we have so much water, but when someone goes and makes more no one should drink it because it wasn't made by god or nature or whatever.

You are all hipocrits lining up to climb the 5 star climbs and then complaining when someone goes and makes a crappy climb into a 5 star.

To "make water" is a euphemism for the act of urination.

I wouldn't drink it.

Jay, you and others are just making the excuse that prevents future progress. It seems clear as a whole I need to just stop getting involved. The same thing has happened over and over in the past. I will continue to develop at crags I find in my style and the list of crags I will stop visiting due to the proliferation of chipping will continue to grow. Too bad considering I really like Shelf. That is my right and my opinion.
Good luck to all and know I was not trying to be inflammatory just tired of traveling far and wide just to climb at outdoor gyms (France included). The world of climbing is getting larger but the options for some of us are getting fewer.

Jay koff wrote:I'll post wherever I want. Everyone one here is complaining about a chipped hold that makes a climb better. You go to a cliff and everyone is lined up waiting to get on the 5 star climbs. The five stare climbs at shelf are the ones that climb like a gym climb, but when a person or an individual goes and makes a climb that way everyone get mad. In the presence of water the fool is thirsty. Everyone is saying that at shelf we have so much water, but when someone goes and makes more no one should drink it because it wasn't made by god or nature or whatever. You are all hipocrits lining up to climb the 5 star climbs and then complaining when someone goes and makes a crappy climb into a 5 star.

ummm, yeah, it's not so much that the person turned a pile into a 5-star route by chipping a hold. more like turning a 1-star route into a pile. chipping doesn't generally make a route better.

Cuddsy must be the ultimate climber... Because surely he has never clipped a bolt, used a chiped hold, or drilled a bolt him self. I once heard Cuddsy fell on a run out 5.6 and his large balls caught him.

thomas ellis wrote: To the Wyoming guy. Screw you. The old routes I can accept. Different time and old ethics. What is going on at Ten Sleep by the new generation is just sickening. All the rock you could ever ask for but you still cannot meet nature on its own terms. Cowardly and pathetic.

Hi Mr. Ellis,

Not sure, but was this directed at me? Even if it wasn't, I would suggest that you try to be more civil. Telling someone to 'screw off' is pretty unnecessary.

Your tone and hyperbolic statements are precisely the type of diatribe that Mr. Knower was trying to address early on in this thread. Breaking things down into black and white terms rarely represents reality. My statements concerning Wyoming are good example.

I have actually agreed with most of your statements in this post and in the NM thread. As a past NM resident, I feel a strong sense of protectiveness towards the region; thus, I find the gluing and chipping that has occurred in the past (and continues into the present) to be totally unacceptable. That said, I disagree that taking the razor edge off of a pocket represents a transgression equal to the drilling at Shelf. In fact, I would argue that the best routes at places like the Wild Iris have pockets that are not 100% natural. When done responsibly, the difficulty of using the pocket is unchanged (i.e. there is no enhancement), the pocket simply no longer shreads your fingers. I more or less consider this to be a similar process to cleaning dangerous crap rock of a route when preparing it for bolting. To me, there is a fine line between what I would deem to be responsible cleaning and edging versus route/hold enhancement and glueing. And unfortunately, some route developers are clearly lacking in their ability to use good judgement when defining that line during route development.

Now, I have no idea what has been going on up at Ten Sleep that you find so offensive, so I cannot comment on that topic. However, your seeming inability to recognize that there are always grey areas with respect to ethics, makes it difficult to have a productive discussion with you.

Hugs.

Jesus Christ.I was actually responding to an earlier statement regarding Wyoming. And for the record Mr Albers I am not a purist and understand grey areas. I am not meaning to come across as a radical. Maybe I am just bad at getting my opinion through on the internet. Conform the holds all you want. I was mostly responding to ten sleep where there are all these inspiring lines that get you psyched and I thought "what luck to find lines like these with holds" (you see, I am always looking for rock) But then I get up on the route and HEY! There were not enough holds so someone decided to create a path of shitty pockets. I am not talking about comfortizing. Unless your definition is blank rock that would seem more comfortable with a drilled pocket.
I am sorry I said "screw you" to anon Wyoming chippers. I should love everyone the way they are.
Peace and good will to all (especially little Timmy)

If I go mountain biking I'm on a trail that is created or 'chipped'. Why would a trail of bolts be any different. People who make bike trails remove lots of material. If I go skiing then trees and rocks are removed to make a more fun run. If I go climbing following a line of bolts I want to have fun. I want to do a fun climb not a lame climb. That is why we all look for the star routes. If there were a climb at shelf that someone made really fun then most of you would bash it online and then climb it for fun.

a lot of spirited debate here.

BUT, is there anyone who thinks drilling out holds is ok?

notice of exclusion: i'm not asking for the opinions of those who've created a profile in the last two days.

Sorry AwesomeJacksonHole, but I disagree. I've been climbing for over 30 years now and not following the crowd. I think forcing a route where one doesn't exist is lame. I really don't care how lame other are (because it's purely subjective). However, in many areas in Colorado nonclimbers merely tolerate climbers. I can see some jackass chisler leaving an eyesore and some other jackass will complain and then a third jackass will close some climbing area I (the fourth jackass) enjoy. My motive is purely selfish.

If you want to be a chizzler, thats fine. Chizzle away! No possible way to get it all. Chizzlers wont walk back to a climb because they can't shorten the trail to bring the rock to themselves. I'll just go a little ways from the road and not have to worry about a couple monkeys watch each other masterbate.

Not trying to feed the flaming here, but a quick thought:

In some places, chipping has been used as a means to "make routes," or, to continue with the gym analogy used earlier in this thread, chipping is used on real rock to "set routes." This is particularly true at some European crags where chipping is acceptable. It seems to me that some communities accept this style because, in a way similar to a well set gym route, a well chipped route could offer a "good climbing experience" (read: be fun). I'm trying to point out that (1) some communities permit chipping and (2) a possible reason for finding chipping permissible.

To be clear, I'm not taking a side here; just making an observation. My overall point is that chipping is a matter of local ethics, and that ethics are rarely black and white.

EDIT TO ADD: I apologize if this point has already been made.

For me, the goal of rock climbing is to figure out how to climb a section of rock. Sometimes nature is cruel and will present us with a section of rock that is much harder to climb than what is above and below, which generally does not result in a very good route. Making a hold such that the rest can be climbed defeats the purpose of rock climbing, at least for me.

For some, the temptation to add a hold so that there can be a new route is great. But, why? It might be that they enjoy the physical activity associated with climbing and just want to climb. In a place like Shelf Road, where there are so many other climbs, this does not seem to be the motivation. I would argue that a gym is the place to create a route, and while outside you should try to solve the puzzle presented to you. Otherwise, you are severely diminishing the climbing experience for many climbers.

Drilling bolts and pockets for free climbing is no less damaging to the rock, but that is not the point. By drilling pockets you are changing the rules of climbing. Any face can now be climbed with enough enhancements, and that just does not seem to be the point of rock climbing. The creation of routes belongs in a gym, and by drilling pockets you are severely altering my, and others, climbing enjoyment for the worse. Lets stop this practice.

Looks like a good hold!

Cuddlebunny - Most adventurous people hold both styles of skiing in equal regard, and you can toss in all kinds of climbing, snowshoeing, kayaking, whatever else we participate in. This is the part that you black and white zealots just don't get; yet I'm sure if given the chance you would just love to impose your oh-so-more evolved awareness of what is best on everyone because we all know you just know better. I am pretty sure that millions of downhill skiers vs a couple dozen of Tele purists (meaning those who disdain downhill so much they never buy a ticket) equates to your POV just not really mattering. Real world: trad routes being bolted is not some sort active problem. It is a concept that people elevate with tremendous hyperbole because the world isn't actually flowing along with their POV. And chipping is even far less so.
The act of chipping has this place in our weird little inbred culture: most of us are disappointed when we see it, which is usually right after using the hold. And almost all of us do not want to be known as the one who did it; thus it is an act that in all actuality rarely occurs. Yet, listen to all the hyperbole from the zealots and this is the most outrageous conspiracy by the destroyers of nature to come along.
Close your eyes, and visualize all those miles of Shelf Road cliffs. Now picture a 3/4" slot 40' up with some drill marks in the back. End of the World? Seriously? Call it what it is, a trend we don't want to see continue; bad form. And then move on worrying more about shit like dwindling energy, the coming cyberattack apocalypse, food riots...

Elijah Flenner wrote: By drilling pockets you are changing the rules of climbing.

I wasn't aware there are rules for climbing. Please PM me these rules so that I can be up to date.

Coeus wrote: I wasn't aware there are rules for climbing. Please PM me these rules so that I can be up to date.

I think you are isolating one sentence in order to discount my argument as a whole. While this practice is very prevalent on web discussion boards, it does not lead to a very good discussions.

The word "rule" might not have been the best choice, but you are kidding yourself in thinking that there are no unwritten "rules" in the climbing game. While these rules may change from person to person, they are still understood by many people who play the game (and in a sense it is only a game). In my climbing game, and many others, one rule is to climb a route without intentionally making holds such that the climbing is easier. The reason is that, once it becomes acceptable to make holds, then the challenge of climbing a route can be greatly diminished. Especially in an area with around 1,000 routes, why create a new one? If you want to create a route, why not do it in a gym? In fact, in the gym you have more freedom.

I would say that in most areas, no creation of holds to make the climbing easier is a rule of this fun, but meaningless, game we play.

Note: I actually think meaningless might be a little harsh, but this is a philosophical question of a different sort.