Could climbing gear be cheaper?

Are you talking about being the next "voted 10 worst dressers in America"?

Bob Packwood wrote:You're going to Harvard, why not try and do something other than fucking retail? You're going to Harvard and you're complaining about prices? Ha Ha. More internet price arbitrage? Snore. Double snore. As other people have said, gear is cheap and getting cheaper. Snore. Lastly, decreasing the gear price barrier would suck for other reasons that you probably don't understand.

Yes. Start a bikini car wash instead.

15 feet of 1" webbing for a making a leg loop harness. 5.00 aprox
10 feet of 2 " for a swami belt for face climbs. 5.00 aprox
1 rope 130.00
1 pair of resoled shoes 65.00
1 set of used stoppers 50.00
1 set of use Hex's 50.00
1 Locking Biner 10.00
15 Oval Biners 75.00
30 feet of webbing cut into runners & Q-Draws 10.00

Total 410.00
Learn body belay and carabiner break rappel

Cheapest sport around !!!!!!!

A 100% mark up on anything in the outdoor industry is a joke. Climbing gear has a 30-40% markup and soft good (clothing) has a 50% mark up. For example store X buys a #1 cam from vendor Y it cost $38.97. Store X sells it at MSRP (manufacture suggested retail price) which is $64.95. That is a 40% mark-up. So if you buy any climbing gear at 40% or more off the shop is loosing money. So consider it a good deal and you a lucky person.
As far as prodeals go companies like BD only give 15% off on certain product twice a year. So what you want might or might not be available. Suppose you wanted to buy a #1 cam it would still be $33.12. If you look around on the net long enough you can find a deal that matches or beats that. Thats my 2 cents!

Ian A.

I don't think manufacturer's will buy in. It's not exactly supporting their retailers, who are their direct customers. If you can't get their buy-in your concept is dead. Have you approached a bunch of them?

PS - all these guys are right. Markups on gear are nover 100%. Oh.... don't confuse markup and margin. 100% Markup over wholesale price = 50% margin.

"For example store X buys a #1 cam from vendor Y it cost $38.97. Store X sells it at MSRP (manufacture suggested retail price) which is $64.95. That is a 40% mark-up."

Actually, unless the shops use new-math, that is a 67% mark up (64.95/38.97=1.66666). If it were on sale for $38.97 down from $64.95, it would be 40% off.

Plenty of soft goods are 100% mark up.

Thought I would offer a little retail math help here. Getting a 100% mark up would mean either the manufacturer gave the products to you, or you stole them. Then whatever price you sell them for is a 100% margin.

I assume you mean 50%. For example, your local retailer buys a carabiner for $5 and sells it for $10, that's a 50% margin. You make $5 for every $10 you sell, or 50%.

My other thoughts are I don't understand how this is interacting "more directly" with manufacturers when it would be through a third party website. Also I know of two sites already that do something similar to what you propose.

Matt Berry wrote:. I assume you mean 50%.

no. this is the difference between markup and margin. a couple folks are using both as if they're interchangeable, which they aren't.

Matt Berry wrote:Thought I would offer a little retail math help here. Getting a 100% mark up would mean either the manufacturer gave the products to you, or you stole them.

False. Perhaps you meant "margin" and just mistakenly typed "mark up." (sorry for the thread drift)

Erik W wrote: False. Perhaps you meant "margin" and just mistakenly typed "mark up." (sorry for the thread drift)

Indeed. Read "markup" one too many times I guess.

Hey guys,

Wow, pretty intense discussion. Thanks for everyone who's taken time to respond and help us get our heads around the issue. If you still haven't taken the survey that led to all this debate, you can take it here: Climbing Habits

In response to the comments above, I've spent the last couple weeks talking to small US gear manufacturers. The bottom line is that a lot of these companies are getting pushed out of the market altogether by larger European suppliers and REI's monopoly control of the retail sector. The companies I've spoken to (not naming names, but these are big companies) have said that to get into REI, they would have to decrease the quality of their products in order to meet REI's price points. Many have refused, and have been kicked out of that channel accordingly. So people who are saying that climbing gear is cheap or expensive are missing the point. REI's monopoly is destroying the manufacturers that make the best gear!

On the discussion of markups, it's true that wholesale is 40% off of retail. But large distributors pay far less than wholesale. In REI's case, after pre-season discounts and bulk discounts, the store is getting gear at 56% off of retail. So the manufacturers are getting 44% of MSRP.

That's a crazy setup. And I have to believe that there is a better way. All the suppliers we've spoken to agree. But I'm really hoping to hear your guys thoughts. You can be mean sometimes, but at least you tell it like it is.

Keller

Keller Rinaudo wrote:REI's monopoly is destroying the manufacturers that make the best gear!

Then you should be supporting the local climbing shops that compete with REI, not try and take business away from the local climbing shops.

Keller Rinaudo wrote:Hey guys, Wow, pretty intense discussion. Thanks for everyone who's taken time to respond and help us get our heads around the issue. If you still haven't taken the survey that led to all this debate, you can take it here: Climbing Habits

Nice try.

Climbing is cheap. Yes, even trad climbing. A big wall aid rack is kinda pricy, but still, compared to skiing, cycling, etc, etc, it's a cheap sport.

Describing REI as a monopoly is laughable, and completely discredits you as someone knowledgeable about economics and business.

People buy gear on the web, and not always from REI. MooseJaw, E-OMC, Gear-X, Gear Express, Backcountry, Altrec, MEC, Whittaker, and many other operations large and small compete with the big EMS and REI twins. If anything, the big stores dominate the uninformed market, while those who actually consider themselves climbers or mountaineers spend thier money with local gear shops and the long list above.

Keller Rinaudo wrote:...after pre-season discounts and bulk discounts, the store is getting gear at 56% off of retail. So the manufacturers are getting 44% of MSRP. That's a crazy setup. And I have to believe that there is a better way. All the suppliers we've spoken to agree. But I'm really hoping to hear your guys thoughts. You can be mean sometimes, but at least you tell it like it is. Keller

It's not a crazy setup at all. It DOES take some margin to maintain the physical retail distribution chain. The stuff has to get to you somehow. Let's not forget that the manufacturer has a margin as well to maintain his operation, and it's typically about the same as the retailer margin. So what you're proposing is to take margin from retailers and hand it to manufacturers while, I presume, taking a piece of it for yourself as payment for your service.

At the beginning of the internet, we all thought that retailers would disappear. It turned out not to be the case. What did happen is that a class of internet retailers arose. Instead of $7.50 per hour store clerks, they hire $7.50 warehouse personnel and a bunch of $50/hour IT people. Even then, people voted local with their dollars. There's still a role for specialty retail where you can find knowledgeable staff and touch and feel things. REI uses both physical and internet channels. It costs them more.

The bottom line here is that I don't think you've got a viable proposition.

PS - Selling cheaper than anybody else is a fast road to Chapter 11.

This study sure does seem on par with Harvard academics.

Peter L K wrote:Climbing is cheap. Yes, even trad climbing. A big wall aid rack is kinda pricy, but still, compared to skiing, cycling, etc, etc, it's a cheap sport.

+1

If you maintain it, most traditional gear will last forever.

I think you're running into two issues here. 1) Your original (double) postings came off as sketchy at best. Climbers (and forum people in particular) are gonna jump down your throat for anything other than being totally straight forward. Frankly, you deserve that one. You gotta keep being clear as day from here on out to get that "trust" back. 2) There's a lot of "been there done that" again and again with the "internet deal" idea. Steap and Cheap, the Clymb, whatever; it all has the same craptastic vibe to it. I always want to scream sunglasses and packs aren't TRUE climbing gear! You've got an uphill battle and frankly, we'll believe it when we see it. Nothing against you but there's been nothing of note in climbing sales systems since being able to buy it online. The best deals are always found through searches online. I've bought from at LEAST 10 different sites because no one site has both selection and price nailed. Not even close.

Don't discount the Euro Brands either. They have a lot more history and culture in the outdoor gear world. DMM, Beal, Petzl, WC etc etc. They all make great stuff. Find a way to get all the euro stuff here AS WELL and you might have my interest even more.

I agree that REI has long since moved out of the "climbing sector". you find a sizable online one-stop-shop with a large selection of true climbing gear at great pricing that also HELPS the manufactures and you'll have a success on your hand.

We all know you're shooting REALLY high and have seen the crash and burns to many times to get too excited right now. Good luck. I'll shop with you if you do succeed.

Keller Rinaudo wrote:Hey guys, Wow, pretty intense discussion. Thanks for everyone who's taken time to respond and help us get our heads around the issue. If you still haven't taken the survey that led to all this debate, you can take it here: Climbing Habits In response to the comments above, I've spent the last couple weeks talking to small US gear manufacturers. The bottom line is that a lot of these companies are getting pushed out of the market altogether by larger European suppliers and REI's monopoly control of the retail sector. The companies I've spoken to (not naming names, but these are big companies) have said that to get into REI, they would have to decrease the quality of their products in order to meet REI's price points. Many have refused, and have been kicked out of that channel accordingly. So people who are saying that climbing gear is cheap or expensive are missing the point. REI's monopoly is destroying the manufacturers that make the best gear! On the discussion of markups, it's true that wholesale is 40% off of retail. But large distributors pay far less than wholesale. In REI's case, after pre-season discounts and bulk discounts, the store is getting gear at 56% off of retail. So the manufacturers are getting 44% of MSRP. That's a crazy setup. And I have to believe that there is a better way. All the suppliers we've spoken to agree. But I'm really hoping to hear your guys thoughts. You can be mean sometimes, but at least you tell it like it is. Keller

Keller Rinaudo wrote: So people who are saying that climbing gear is cheap or expensive are missing the point. REI's monopoly is destroying the manufacturers that make the best gear!

at first, your point WAS that gear is expensive. now your point is that REI is killing climbing gear manufacturers, etc.

think about this: all those superduper climbing gear companies that can't hang with REI's price structure also probably can't hang with REI for another reason: volume. REI can't put an item in their catalog and only be able to source a hundred units. there are many climbing gear companies that will never be able to supply REI with the quantities that a large retailer needs.

success in a discount retail endeavor always relies on volume and the same is true for your idea. as others have pointed out, this means you'll have your own overhead that (surprise!) will likely lead to larger markups. and then your gear will be in the same price range that cheapos like me will always be able to sniff out when we need gear: 25-30% off MSRP.