Camalot defect?

I've only been climbing traditional for a couple years, so my experience with protection gear is limited. I recently upgraded my rack with a new set of C4s. I took a lead fall about 5 or 6 feet above my well placed #2 a couple days ago. No big deal, except that the camalot lobes got all tweaked in the fall. Is that scary and a defect, or is that what happens with a decent fall? Basically, the axles shifted all the way to one side, pinching the lower lobes tight against the end of the axle. That alone caused the action to not even work on that side of the cam . . . but in addition, the lobes used to open and close, near parallel with minimal play. Now, the lobes open and spread apart as they open . . . the play in the lobes is all over the place. The cam was placed perfectly fine in a perfectly vertical crack system with clean walls. The lobes were never caught up in anything. I'd say it was a picture perfect placement for what a cam is supposed to be used for and how to properly place it. The fall was a straight drop over it, past it, and under it . . . I'm just amazed if this is normal for camalots to get this tweaked in an average-type fall. I guess I'm looking for anyone who can comment on this being normal and the camalot still being safe to use . . . or if I'm out of 70 bucks every time I fall.

Sounds goofy, pictures would be very useful.

Peter,

The axle shifting is normal. You can really tell on size #4 Camalot and above. The two axles can shift back and forth. Tap the opposite side on the palm of you hand. Should shift back.

Luke

Looks like you took a rare fall. That is not common. I've taken many medium sized falls on mine and had no problems.
If it saved your life then it did its job. Regardless of the price per unit, and you are not in traction. Remember the force involved with a lead fall. You say it was well placed; when it was placed. Cams can walk and do all crazy things.One lobe in the back could have tweaked and caused it. I have had that happen with technical friends but not Camalots. Contact BD is you think there was a manufacturing error.

Peter Schroer wrote:...I guess I'm looking for anyone who can comment on this being normal and the camalot still being safe to use . . . or if I'm out of 70 bucks every time I fall.

It is entirely possible for a cam to be damaged during a fall. Is it normal? Not in my experience.

I would absolutely NOT climb on the cam until it went back to BD for their evaluation. Contact them and ask how to make that happen.

If it looks sketch then I would retire it. like PTZ said, if it saved your life what's $60 for a new one so it can save your life again.

Peter Schroer wrote:Basically, the axles shifted all the way to one side, pinching the lower lobes tight against the end of the axle. That alone caused the action to not even work on that side of the cam . . . but in addition, the lobes used to open and close, near parallel with minimal play. Now, the lobes open and spread apart as they open . . . the play in the lobes is all over the place.

Hmmm. I guess I'm not gettin' what you're saying happened to the cam.

Its a double axle, right? And, both axles go through a block in the center of the cam. They "shifted"? You mean, one or both got bent on one or both sides?

I'm trying to imagine what happened to the cam, but, I just can't picture it.

Did one of the inside cam lobes get moved slightly away from the center block of the cam (along both axles)? Can you see a washer in the space? If so, trying pushing the inside cam lobe back against the center block. Look and see if the trigger wire is bent and getting in the way of the cam action. Should also be a spring on each cam. These should be attached to the little rivet post and the spring shouldn't be inside the window cutout where the cam lobe slides on the axle.

Plates with the "2" stamped on them still attached and the axle rivets in these plates still intact?

Photo?

I can't say for sure without a picture but this movement is normal. The Black Diamond website explains it here:
blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

As Luke said you can just tap the axles back to the centered position.

This happened to my partners #3. Took a fall on a terrible placement, the cam held but the aluminum piece connected to the stem shifted over and pinched the lobes. He worked it back into place with a flathead and has been climbing on it with no problems. However, as with any gear questions it's up to your judgement whether you want to be climbing on it or not.

Peter Schroer wrote: No big deal, except that the camalot lobes got all tweaked in the fall...in addition, the lobes used to open and close, near parallel with minimal play. Now, the lobes open and spread apart as they open . . . the play in the lobes is all over the place.

This is the part that would have me concerned. Send the cam back, do not use it.*

* YGD if you do.

the non-parallel movement of the cams leads me to (prematurely) guess that you have a bent axle. if this is the case, you will probably want to retire the unit.

+1 for pics... I'd like to see exactly what you mean.

K, here are the sequenced photos. I could try a short video if anyone feels the need for that. As you can see, the inner lobe tweaks out when not guided by the other axle . . . once the other axle makes contact, it straightens back out. Also clear is how used this cam was . . . once.

• **NOTE*** The axles have been tapped back to center, resulting in the lobes action to work flawlessly. So movement is fluid . . . what remains is the lobe that spreads as opens. Worrisome to me is that the other lobe doesn't spread. I would think a bent axle would cause more than one lobe to spread and would also result in some weird, non-fluid movement opening and closing. This thing still feels brand new if your eyes are shut. I'm still kinda thinking the lobe itself is tweaked. And if that is the case . . . that seems like a quality control issue. On that note, if the lobe is tweaked, it is possible that where the axle passes through the lobe has been tweaked while the lobe itself is fine. In other words, I feel like maybe the hole has been bent wider where the axle passes through . . . thus allowing the lobe to move all over at will. The play is quite impressive . . . when the lobe has spread away from center(pic 2), I can push it back so that it looks parallel and correct . . . which suggests that the axle is NOT bent or else it would maintain the flared position.

You know, I've just been sitting here feeling sorry for myself and my expensive piece of metal and plastic . . . I've just been working the action back and forth . . . the axles don't move. The lobes rotate around the axles. So, I'm ruling out a bent axle because there is no effect on the outside lobes which use the inside lobe axle as their guide. Not to mention how unlikely it would be for only ONE axle to bend when in parallel with another and connected at both ends and in the middle. This is not a case of axles being bent. Either the lobe has actually been tweaked off of its normal planes, or more likely, the hole through which the axle passes has been bent in a way that allows large amounts of play side to side. This makes sense and the spread would be the result of the trigger wire pulling outward as well as upward . . . and the lobe is unable to stay in parallel due to the messed up hole.

I still think that this is contradictory to the reputation of the Camalot. I have a #3 Chouinard that I use . . . it's held many falls and the lobes are straight up and down as could be. Want to know my real thoughts? Chouinard made his in California with his own hands. . . the C4s are coming out of China and probably this is a question about the quality of the metal they are using. I'm guessing a batch of poor-quality metal from a sub-contracted company is to blame here. I know this is some serious conspiracy . . . but the metal in this C4 seems so soft to me. The quality of my old Chouinard, picked up a few years back from an old climber in New England, will beat this C4 any day of the year as far as I'm concerned. I'm genuinely curious to see if anyone else thinks the same regarding metal quality control overseas in China. Number of my cam is 0102A. I won't even be surprised if some other C4 #2 serial numbers +/- 50 of mine are also "Warping" when given a good fall. MADE IN THE USA would be nice to see on these things.

Peter Schroer wrote:Want to know my real thoughts?

Not if it's just going to be another made in america rant.

You have made an awful lot of assumptions about that piece of metal in your hands without knowing a truly astounding number of facts that you would have to possess in order to have any credibility what so ever in your analysis.

Perhaps the answer to your query is the most obvious one. For some reason the cam was in a less than ideal position when it caught your fall. It caught you but did not survive the encounter. They are not indestructible. Climb on it, throw it away or sell it on ebay. No body really cares. However,I'd be willing to bet many others find your thread title misleading and alarmist.

This doesn't seem to be a defect in the cam rather in the use of it. I doubt anyone in china is to blame for your problem.

Shit happens.

Peter Schroer wrote:You know, I've just been sitting here feeling sorry for myself and my expensive piece of metal and plastic . . .

Peter, I'm not quite sure what you're feeling bad about, that cam possibly saved your life. It did exactly what is was supposed to do: it held your fall. The fact that it got tweaked in the process is just what happens sometimes. Either send to BD and have them do a proper evaluation or hang it on the wall as a trophy and tell the story of the "Great Big Whipper" to anyone who asks about it.

Peter Schroer wrote:...Want to know my real thoughts? Chouinard made his in California with his own hands. . . the C4s are coming out of China and probably this is a question about the quality of the metal they are using. I'm guessing a batch of poor-quality metal from a sub-contracted company is to blame here. I know this is some serious conspiracy . . . but the metal in this C4 seems so soft to me. The quality of my old Chouinard, picked up a few years back from an old climber in New England, will beat this C4 any day of the year as far as I'm concerned. I'm genuinely curious to see if anyone else thinks the same regarding metal quality control overseas in China. Number of my cam is 0102A. I won't even be surprised if some other C4 #2 serial numbers +/- 50 of mine are also "Warping" when given a good fall. MADE IN THE USA would be nice to see on these things.

Also, I tend to agree with Yarp on this. You are making some large assumptions without understanding the engineering behind the design. And you're doing it on very public site. I would suggest a nice letter to BD explaining what happened and see what they say. Who knows, they may very well send you a new cam.

Edit to fix wonky quoting

Peter Schroer wrote:K, here are the sequenced photos. I could try a short video if anyone feels the need for that. As you can see, the inner lobe tweaks out when not guided by the other axle . . . once the other axle makes contact, it straightens back out. Also clear is how used this cam was . . . once.

I had the same thing happen to one of my .4 C4's after I took a fall on it. I just wiggled the lobes around and they returned back to their original position.

Looks to me like the pivot hole might be elongated/egged. Since the trigger connects to the outside of the lobe, it's going to put a torque on the lobe twisting it in that direction as you pull it. If you were to tweak the trigger wire going into the lobe to have a sharper angle the lobe-lean might be less apparent... not that it fixes the problem at all.

The other thing i'm thinking is one of the axles could be bent down. Since each side is only the pivot for one lobe, it's possible only one end bent thus no affect on the angle of the others. But it's also the cam stop for the opposing lobe. Could we get a shot of the cam from the side with it completely open? If the axles are bent/twisted, I think you should notice that the bottom of the cams aren't all parallel when it's umbrella'd.

You also said you had to tap the axles back to center. I know on mine, particularly my larger camalots, that the axles float and are easily moved back and forth by hand. This might also be a sign that the axle is tweaked if it's difficult to shift.

Well, thanks for all the replies. As I stated clearly . . . I'm relatively new to the Traditional aspect of climbing as the gear it uses. Also, I realize that my assumptions could be far fetched . . . but I also was clear that it is delving into conspiracy more than anything else. And what really does need to be said . . . is that perhaps I'm the only person who has experienced this, which would put my "conspiracy" to rest.

A) I don't have the years of experience, thus I'm asking everyone for their opinions. (Thank you again)

B) The reputation of the camalot is surpassed by none, but here I am after one SMALL fall, the second route the piece was placed in. The cam could have been placed bad, but it looked to be exactly where I had placed it before, same direction. I really think it was not.

So all in all, I think what I've brought up is a worthy point. I should clarify that I do plan to get the cam to Black Diamond when I return to the US. I won't be back in the US until June. Feeling sorry for myself was supposed to be a humorous way to point out that for the next 5 months I don't have the #2 camalot I was counting on using down here. I am grateful it held my fall, it worked perfectly on that note, I don't dispute that. Unfortunately, there is no great whipper story to go with the damaged piece, that's the whole point. 30 foot fall, ok . . . but 6 feet or so?

As far as the Made in America rant goes, I'll save it and not bother anyone. But I do have enough personal experiences overseas to know a thing or two about American business on foreign soil. And is it really far-fetched to think that an American Company could have a sub-contracted company make a mistake or have a bad batch of metal? Do I like the idea of that? Heck no, I want to think that every piece I'm relying on is bombproof and going to save my life. And I think that way, otherwise I wouldn't buy their stuff. However, are we naive enough to believe that these commercial business mistakes could never happen to a climbing company? Let's pray not. But I've posted the cam and experience here . . . the majority opinion seems to suggest this is NOT a TYPICAL presentation of Camalot durability or function. Should not every possibility be thought about? Was the placement bad? Maybe. Did the cam walk somewhere bad? Maybe. Is this just unlucky force multiplication? Maybe. Is the metal bad in a batch? Maybe.

This thread isn't to accuse BD of a poor product, rather, looking for the majority opinion about what happened to me, and basically posting my thoughts looking at the cam in my hands. I 100% will be sending the cam back to them IN JUNE, along with a letter describing what happened. In June, I'll come back to this post and tell the results of what they think. If it is a quality control issue on a batch of Camalots from overseas . . . then perhaps this experience and thread would save people's lives with a recall. Again, that is clearly extreme circumstances . . . but if it turned out to be reality, I think there would be a lot of grateful people. It's worth the inquiry, or as we would say in medicine, RULE IT OUT.

In summary, I think the cam getting tweaked is an unlucky scenario, but plausible. Not typical, but not impossible. And I've gotten the general vibe that people think it's not safe to climb on it, which is what I've thought since the fall. So again, thank you to everyone who commented and gave opinions to me. I appreciate the input and I am glad that people think this isn't likely to happen to my other 5 cams. No one should be afraid of a product from one person's experience(and the cam did hold my fall perfectly), but if other people have encountered this, my instinct tells me to check the serial numbers against mine. Doesn't hurt to be safe. Consumer awareness is the only place to find true safety.

That happened to my .3 C4 once. I hit it really hard, everything snapped back into place and it's caught falls just fine since then. Don't worry about it unless you're bored and just need something to do.