Double Rope Tips and Tricks?

Hey all,

I just got a new pair of double ropes for Christmas. My first pair, I've never had experience with them before. I understand how and when to use them and their pros and cons - basically what you read in books, that is not what I'm looking for, I am looking for any real world tips or tricks for using them.

I know that one major downside is rope management, what are some things that you do to mitigate this? Any finer tips on belaying with both ropes? Do you flake your ropes together or in 2 separate piles? Any other tips would be appreciated.

Thanks

Which ropes do you have and are they rated as doubles and twins or just as doubles.

-Glenn

Flake them together. Treat them as one rope when you are stacking them, and two when you are belaying.

You'll learn your own system but you must be able to feed slack in each rope individually without feeding slack in the other. This goes for belaying your second also. Don't pull him/her off the route by taking in slack in the wrong rope.

There's really nothing too it. I'd climb with them all the time if so many of my partners didn't like them. I don't know why people think it's so complicated.

Thanks Ryan. I'm excited to get out and try them!

Glenn, I have the Edelweiss Sharp 8.5s, they are rated only for doubles and NOT for twins. I was thinking about getting the dual cert but I got a deal I couldn't pass up on these.

Although it is very elementary, it can't hurt to watch the instructional video on the ukclimbing site.

Pay no attention to the concept of alternating clips (unless the part of the route you are on runs straight up and down). You should be thinking about running parallel rope lines up the cliff and choose which rope to clip accordingly. Anticipate where the next pro might be, and have little consults with your second about which rope to clip; they can often see the situation better than you.

There are some tricks to giving the leader a proper belay. An important one is for the belayer to learn to look at the ropes right in front of them. The reason for this is that you will be able to tell instantly which rope needs to be paid out and which needs to be taken in if you are looking at the strands directly in front of you. Belayers who only watch the leader (or the valley or the hotties next route over) very often can't tell which rope is being pulled up, especially when the leader pulling up a lot of slack for an overhead clip, and so they end up pumping out both ropes, thereby negating one of the advantages of double rope technique.

You should experiment with some different hand techniques. For example, if a lot of one strand needs to be taken in, you might want to use the non-braking hand to pull that strand through the device AND you braking hand, which doesn't move at all and so still controls the other strand.

Catching falls is an issue. I don't think that there is a device on the market that supplies enough friction to hold a high-fall-factor fall on a single 8.5mm strand, so you better be wearing gloves. Moreover, you should be sure you are using a device that is at least among the higher-friction ones available. (Original-style ATC's and the original Reverso are most definitely out.) I have high hopes for the DMM Chicane designed by Jim Titt, but it isn't going to show up until the spring.

Practice safe stacking. People cite handling as one of the drawbacks of double ropes, but I think most problems come from insufficient attention to flaking, piling, or stacking. For long multipitch routes, you might want to try out Metolius rope hooks. People laugh at me and point fingers, but I think those hooks make a difference for handling doubles.

Double ropes have their uses even on bolted pitches:

rgold wrote:Although it is very elementary, it can't hurt to watch the instructional video on the ukclimbing site. Pay no attention to the concept of alternating clips (unless the part of the route you are on runs straight up and down). You should be thinking about running parallel rope lines up the cliff and choose which rope to clip accordingly. Anticipate where the next pro might be, and have little consults with your second about which rope to clip; they can often see the situation better than you. There are some tricks to giving the leader a proper belay. An important one is for the belayer to learn to look at the ropes right in front of them. The reason for this is that you will be able to tell instantly which rope needs to be paid out and which needs to be taken in if you are looking at the strands directly in front of you. Belayers who only watch the leader (or the valley or the hotties next route over) very often can't tell which rope is being pulled up, especially when the leader pulling up a lot of slack for an overhead clip, and so they end up pumping out both ropes, thereby negating one of the advantages of double rope technique. You should experiment with some different hand techniques. For example, if a lot of one strand needs to be taken in, you might want to use the non-braking hand to pull that strand through the device AND you braking hand, which doesn't move at all and so still controls the other strand. Catching falls is an issue. I don't think that there is a device on the market that supplies enough friction to hold a high-fall-factor fall on a single 8.5mm strand, so you better be wearing gloves. Moreover, you should be sure you are using a device that is at least among the higher-friction ones available. (Original-style ATC's and the original Reverso are most definitely out.) I have high hopes for the DMM Chicane designed by Jim Titt, but it isn't going to show up until the spring. Practice safe stacking. People cite handling as one of the drawbacks of double ropes, but I think most problems come from insufficient attention to flaking, piling, or stacking. For long multipitch routes, you might want to try out Metolius rope hooks. People laugh at me an point fingers, but I think those hooks make a difference for handling doubles. Double ropes have their uses even on bolted pitches:

For what it's worth I've caught some pretty good whips on 8.5 or so with a new Reverso 3. Never worn gloves.

I'm like you though, I wouldn't want to be using anything w/o the teeth if you have thinner ropes.

If you can, get your hands on a TRE Sirius belay device. Very nice for rappelling as well.

while it is largely treating both ropes as a single there is some art to it as well. "micro adjusting" by watching the amount of slack in front of you as said above is key. By using your non-brake hand to pull in the slack above your belay device on the rope in need of tending and pulling below the device does seem to work best to actually benefit from using doubles instead of having too much slack out all together. One other tip i could offer is set up a standard system (blue always on right, green always on left) that way setting up the belayer and climber are always on the same page and you avoide subtle crosses of the rope which is obviously never good.

the thing i'd like to reiterate is what rgold said about not paying too much attention to alternating the ropes on every other piece. this kind of kills their versatility. just treat them as if you are using 2 separate ropes, and generally use one as a "left" rope and one as a "right rope". if you do this, you will have infinitely better options for protecting both the leader and the second on traversing terrain. have fun!

Thanks for the input guys. I appreciate it. If you have anything else, I'd be happy to hear that too.

You've gotten some good replies here, especially from rgold. The main thing I would add is to try and get some practice in the gym (assuming your gym doesn't have any policy against this).

When I was first learning to use doubles, I would start out on a lead route in the gym and make the first clip or two with my right rope; then rainbow out to the left onto an adjoining route and clip in with my left rope; and so on to the top. Then I'd switch with my partner doing the same thing to get some practice belaying. A couple of leads like that and the basics will be pretty clear.

JL

rgold wrote:...Catching falls is an issue. I don't think that there is a device on the market that supplies enough friction to hold a high-fall-factor fall on a single 8.5mm strand, so you better be wearing gloves. Moreover, you should be sure you are using a device that is at least among the higher-friction ones available. (Original-style ATC's and the original Reverso are most definitely out.) I have high hopes for the DMM Chicane designed by Jim Titt, but it isn't going to show up until the spring.

As a pretty larger climber myself, I share this concern, so I'm keeping my eye open for the Mammut Smart Alpine. I spoke to the US rep and it'll be available in the spring. (I tried to insert a link to a video, but can't seem to get it to work...)

Ryan Williams wrote:Flake them together. Treat them as one rope when you are stacking them

I've always flaked and stacked them separately, thinking this would reduce rat's nests, tangling and kinking. Does flaking and stacking them together work better? Seems like it would be an invitation to a cluster-f---.

Puzman wrote: I've always flaked and stacked them separately, thinking this would reduce rat's nests, tangling and kinking. Does flaking and stacking them together work better? Seems like it would be an invitation to a cluster-f---.

It not only prevents tangles better, but it's faster an takes up far less space at small or hanging belays. Win win. One thing I have started to do is separate the ropes only at the top out pitch while bringing up my second.

At the start of the climb when the ropes are separate anyway, there is no reason not to pile them separately. Once on the route, everyone I know piles, flakes, or stacks them together like one rope.

If one is careful with the stacking and attentive while paying out rope, tangling just isn't going to be a serious issue. One thing that is not often mentioned is that things go better if the pile is more or less directly under the belayer's hands, so that the ropes are lifted straight up off the pile. Having the pile off to the side and dragging the ropes horizontally out of the pile is much more likely to produce snarls.

Conventional wisdom about flaking the rope over the anchor for semi-hanging belays involves variable-length loops that can't capture each other. This has never worked for me, because I can never seem to get the loop dimensions right while also attending to belaying. What I like instead is a collection of very short loops, short enough so that I can touch the bottom of the loops while belaying. The belayer carefully unwraps each loop (keep ahead of the leader please) with this system and can avoid the capturing process that creates bad tangles.

What makes the Metolious rope hook so effective is that the belayer can very easily lift loops off the hook and drop them, rather than pulling them out of the flaked pile.

Ropes that have been taken in together while belaying do tend to snarl if you try to separate them, especially if they aren't being drawn out of the pile at the same rate---something I've noticed when coiling ropes at the top of climbs. Consequently, making an effort to restack ropes separately after they have been taken in together is actually more likely to create tangles than just leaving them as they are.

To second one of Julie's comments, there is really no need for a cordelette when you have double ropes, except in some cases when one person is going to lead successive pitches.

1. You can cut the length of a fall significantly by paying slack only on the rope that the leader is clipping at that moment. Sometimes putting one finger between the ropes will help them stay neat and separate.

2. Flake the ropes into two piles off the ground. At each belay treat it like a single rope. If the CF factor gets high and you have a solid ledge re-flake into separate piles again. It will stay unclustered for quite a few pitches.

3. When you set up for the rap, you and your partner should flake both ropes at the same time. Try flaking one of the ropes by itself and it will be a major rats nest.

4. If you are block leading you can switch ends by untying one rope at a time. The original leader is into the anchor with both ropes (ie, one to a master point, one as a back up). The follower will be on an auto lock top belay or a tied off belay. switch one rope at a time and both parties are always into the anchor. Confusing but just think it through and it will be quick and simple.

5. Parties of 3 aren't time sucks anymore. Use an auto lock top belay (reverso or atc guide) and have both seconds climb at the same time. Make sure they stay 25 feet apart since you don't want the middle guy to fall into the bottom guy. Remember the rope stretch will be a bit more than your used to.

6. Flake the ropes over an extended trad draw especially on hanging belays. Clip one side of the draw to your harness and one side to the anchor and have that set up below your tie in points. When you are done you can unclip it from your harness and hang that sling from the anchor and keep it out of the way. It also keeps 10 lbs of rope off your harness which is significant on very long days.

Glenn Gordon wrote:Would someone please post an illustration or description of using half ropes at a (horizontally) bolted belay station in place of a cordelette? I've read that this is a nice advantange of doubles, but I have not seen it done. Thanks, Glenn

You have two ropes tied to you. Put a clove hitch on one of those ropes just under an arm's length away from your harness, clip that to one bolt. Do the same with the other rope on the other bolt. Adjust clove hitches if necessary.

shoo wrote: You have two ropes tied to you. Put a clove hitch on one of those ropes just under an arm's length away from your harness, clip that to one bolt. Do the same with the other rope on the other bolt. Adjust clove hitches if necessary.

Thanks shoo,

I didn't phrase my question properly...

How do you get the master point without the cordelette?

JSH posted "Another trick: it's very, very easy to make a belay using two ropes. With three pieces: clove/fig8 one piece to one of your tie-in sides. Tie off the other to the second piece, run it back to a loop or a knot at your harness, then back out to a final knot at the third piece."

I just want to make sure I understand this properly. Can someone post an illustration perhaps?

Thanks

joe disciullo wrote:4. If you are block leading you can switch ends by untying one rope at a time. The original leader is into the anchor with both ropes (ie, one to a master point, one as a back up). The follower will be on an auto lock top belay or a tied off belay. switch one rope at a time and both parties are always into the anchor. Confusing but just think it through and it will be quick and simple.

I can't see how, un-tying and re-tying four knots could be simpler or quicker than having your second arrive at the belay and clip two carabiners into the same point (or points) the leader is clipped to.

-sp wrote: I can't see how, un-tying and re-tying four knots could be simpler or quicker than having your second arrive at the belay and clip two carabiners into the same point (or points) the leader is clipped to.

I tend to agree with you SP. This probably sounds more difficult than it is, but I tend to lead most, if not all pitches, so a cordalette still seems easiest to me...

-sp, he's talking about the leader leading consecutive pitches. Retying is a way to avoid restacking the ropes (or turning over the pile, which never worked consistently for me). But I think you are right anyway, because my experience is that you can restack the rope in the same or less time it takes to untie and retie four knots, so I personally see no point in exposing the party to the additional risks involved in continually unroping.