Down climbing sweaters?

More info than required but also a comparison of the Eddie Bauer and Patagonia down sweaters.

coldthistle.blogspot.com/20…

I always wear sweaters when down climbing.

great article!

I only wear my sweater if I'm looking to be "climbing down" later in the evening.

You're a cute pair of sox puppets..

I just don't understand the concept. Down is a great, puffy outer layer insulator. Why would I get an expensive down 'sweater' that is gonna be crushed down to less than productive insulating quality, as an underlayer? Nothing beats my old Dachstein wool sweaters for layer #2 or 3.

I think the part you are confused about is that the "sweater" is the outer layer and insulating layer in one. It's not under anything (unless you are belaying). There is no "shell" layer. The soft-shell is superfluous when you use a modern, synthetic (not down), light puffy like an Atom LT over just a baselayer. When moving, this is a perfect setup for ice climbing or any activity between 10 and 50 degrees. Durability is the only concern. I'd carry a beefier hard shell if real rain is a possibility or if I was gonna grovel up chimneys. But that for me is rare. For me, a Mountain Hardware Power Stretch suit as baselayer with the Atom Lt, soft shell pants, and a belay jacket is all I need to be happy 90 percent of the time in winter in North Carolina, New Hampshire, or Colorado. Fewer layers and waistbands is more comfortable too.

I realize the site did discuss real down for a bit. That came with the necessary warnings about it, though.

The blog post was discussing the use of sweater weight garments as insulated outer shells.

Woodchuck ATC wrote:Nothing beats my old Dachstein wool sweaters for layer #2 or 3.

Dachstein sweaters certainly have had their place. But like any wool garment once wet they get heavy. There are better garments today that will work as insulation, a outer shell or better yet both.

Large size Dachstein weighs 3 lb 5 oz. dry.
Patagonia Nano puff hoody weighs 12 oz
Arcteryx Atom LT weighs 14 oz

2.5# is a huge amount of weight to give up in modern clothing.

Both of the modern "sweaters" have a useable hood (and be warmer becasue of it) and will shed water better than a Dachstein and stay warmer longer because of it. The hoodless versions will easily match the warmth of a full weight Dachstein imo. Both modern versions can be used as a insulation layer or a "real" shell.

The down sweaters are even warmer (much warmed than a Dachstein) and more wind proof. The DWR finishes can keep the down dry and fully insulating much longer than I would have expected. But there are obvious limitations.

By the time they are wet a Dachstein sweater will weigh 7 pounds.

In the grand scheme of things I don't see a Dachstein sweater being any more durable than some of the new sweaters if my Dachsteins are any example.

I got my first down sweater this year, and it is impossibly warm. I can't use it with a shell as it is just too hot. My previous solution was a monkey jacket with a Millet shell over it. This is warmer, lighter and less bulky. The only minus is it is very limited in the moisture repelling category. If I know precipitation is on the menu, I go back to using a shell.

I got this in zinc:

isisforwomen.com/slipstream…

If you're a lady climber, grab one. Good for wives and girlfriends too.

A little off topic but this is what my wife uses and loves under a thin Primaloft sweater.

outdoorresearch.com/site/w_…

on sale @ REI currently

rei.com/product/787180

Her vest is one of the reasons I started rethinking down sweaters to climb in as I generally have some sort of Primaloft piece on hand as well.

I have nothing to compare it to, but I really like my Eddie Bauer first ascent downlight sweater.. got it on a great sale, the only issue is it seems to shed feathers a little too frequently.. but its super warm and seems very light.. I wear it under the mountain guide softshell. Decided to purchase because they sell tall sizes and I am 6'3 and thin with a positive ape index. If you can grab this stuff on sale.. I've been very happy with it, and becasue its eddie bauer, you can give it an honest field test and return it if you dont like it.

As a side note, it seems like the Eddie Bauer gear has kind of a bad name in some circles.. any reason for that?

I bought one of the EB 1st Ascent down vests. It's super light and for a vest it's warm. It's 800 fill down feels better than the some of the others I've tried. The vest is really light, but is not downproof. If I didn't already have 5 other synthetic/down jackets already I'd get the 1st Ascent Down Sweater. I have a baselayer and mid layer fleece from 1st ascent that rock; especially for the price.

In Colorado I almost always go for my down over the synthetics. Down if taken care of lasts a lot longer than synthetic and is every bit worth the price. Just don't poke holes with your ice tools/screws like I have!!!

I don't know why the 1st Ascent has a bad rep. So far everything I've seen is just as good as marmot, patagonia etc. Some of their stuff got great reviews in Backpacker. I think it's cheap because there are not a lot of frills. (My vest doesn't have a draw chord around the waste. I can deal without it.)

My buddy has one of their big down jackets, loves it and he's tough on gear. I'd trade my $400 down Marmot in for it if I could! Maybe it's just the name of Eddie Bauer being attached and that there are a lot of "non-climbers" wearing it? I know the tag on my vest says 1st Ascent/ Whittaker Mountaineering. Maybe that would make people feel better!! LOL!

if anyone here thinks their EB FA sheds too many feathers ... just walk in and swap it out ... this girl i bought it for did it without a receipt ... try doing that with a dead bird the same day

"every item will give you complete satisfaction or you may return it for a full refund"

the older versions were polyester and some have had some down leaking ... ive had no issues

the newer ones are nylons

just swap it out if you think youve lost a few quackers

IMO the reason why EB FA sometimes has a "bad rep" is
- EB went mainstream and are now just coming back to their roots
- its not a yuppie name brand, because joe smoe can afford it, no exclusivity here
- you can't look as cool as when prancing around in yr patagucci or dead birdies

EB FA is top quality gear thats often on sale
- their hoodies are functionally the same as the R1s at a lower costs
- their downlight is functionally the same and warm or warmer than patagucci down sweaters
- their igniter and serano jackets are functionally the same as the micro and nano puffs ... and are often on sale
- their peak jacket stands up against any other cold weather down jacket very favorably and is a price leader

etc ...

Here is an observation on EB and Patagonia down in the hooded versions i own.

The Patagonia material is more down proof but they use a lot less down in the garment. EB uses a lot more down but their fabic is a bit less down proof.

By "down proof" what I really mean is the small feathers that are always included in any batch of down, be it 550 fill or 850 fill, will come through the less (less down proof) tightly woven material.

Both the Patagonia and the EB (or anyone's down) products will shed "down" (which are not really down but small feathers) as you wear the garment.

Actual down that offers the real insulation doesn't have a full blown quill that will poke through material.

bearbreeder wrote:if anyone here thinks their EB FA sheds too many feathers ... just walk in and swap it out ... this girl i bought it for did it without a receipt ... try doing that with a dead bird the same day "every item will give you complete satisfaction or you may return it for a full refund" the older versions were polyester and some have had some down leaking ... ive had no issues the newer ones are nylons just swap it out if you think youve lost a few quackers IMO the reason why EB FA sometimes has a "bad rep" is - EB went mainstream and are now just coming back to their roots - its not a yuppie name brand, because joe smoe can afford it, no exclusivity here - you can't look as cool as when prancing around in yr patagucci or dead birdies EB FA is top quality gear thats often on sale - their hoodies are functionally the same as the R1s at a lower costs - their downlight is functionally the same and warm or warmer than patagucci down sweaters - their igniter and serano jackets are functionally the same as the micro and nano puffs ... and are often on sale - their peak jacket stands up against any other cold weather down jacket very favorably and is a price leader etc ...

I own the FA Bat Hang Hoodie and an R1 I picked up for $90 direct from Patagonia. The R1 is clearly better (fit and materials). However, at $180 I would not buy an R1 because it is retarded expensive. Patagonia has been nothing but stellar about returns with me and so has FA.

EB is certainly making a name for itself and I like what they are doing. I've bought about $750 worth of stuff from them in the last month alone. Some has been great, some went back because FA doesn't have it quite right yet (like the Guide Lite pants for example). I've bought the FA products I have because the price was right and the materials happened to be the same as Patagonia, OR, Arcteryx, Rab, etc, not because I have an interest in the brand (FA or EB).

All that said, don't throw the baby out with the bath water, Patagonia has been around a long time and the ink is barely dry on EB's bankruptcy. Long term performance remains to be seen but it seams they are carving out a name for themselves.

Here is a sale on most of the Patagonia items discussed in this thread. They do go on sale despite what some would have you believe.

backcountrygear.com/catalog…;mfgname=Patagonia

Cat-tail down?

Dane wrote:The blog post was discussing the use of sweater weight garments as insulated outer shells. Dachstein sweaters certainly have had their place. But like any wool garment once wet they get heavy. There are better garments today that will work as insulation, a outer shell or better yet both. Large size Dachstein weighs 3 lb 5 oz. dry. Patagonia Nano puff hoody weighs 12 oz Arcteryx Atom LT weighs 14 oz 2.5# is a huge amount of weight to give up in modern clothing. Both of the modern "sweaters" have a useable hood (and be warmer becasue of it) and will shed water better than a Dachstein and stay warmer longer because of it. The hoodless versions will easily match the warmth of a full weight Dachstein imo. Both modern versions can be used as a insulation layer or a "real" shell. The down sweaters are even warmer (much warmed than a Dachstein) and more wind proof. The DWR finishes can keep the down dry and fully insulating much longer than I would have expected. But there are obvious limitations. By the time they are wet a Dachstein sweater will weigh 7 pounds. In the grand scheme of things I don't see a Dachstein sweater being any more durable than some of the new sweaters if my Dachsteins are any example.

Maybe I'm just a better experienced hiker/climber/camper than average , as I tend to keep my wool sweaters DRY with my GorTex or other outer layers. Have never ever in over 50 years had to wring out a heavy wool piece of clothing other than a hat. Just dumb luck or good outdoor planning? I can easily recall when heavy rain would soak my down sleeping bag. Down is great in cold dry weather, but I'll never use it to replace my dependable wool blend layers.

"Maybe I'm just a better experienced hiker/climber/camper than average , as I tend to keep my wool sweaters DRY with my GorTex or other outer layers."

No arguement from me. One of the ideas behind using a sweater weight garment is to avoid using a third layer and adding the additional weight. Wool generally is heavier in comparison to synthetics and doesn't make a very weather proof shell. As you mention wool needs another layer to protect it.

I was just making the observation that some of the newer options in clothing make it possible to use only 2 layers instead of 3 today even in cold and foul weather. All the while saving weight and being equally as comfortable. Down may not be the best insulation for really nasty weather depending on the shell material but I don't think the majority of wool garments are either.

since we seem to be talking about FA stuff alot ... though id post the amount of down that someone on BPL kindly provided

note that the men's peak is missing there, but the whittaker store was kind enough to look it up for me a bit back, there's ~13oz of down in the peak jacket

also note that there's 3 oz of down in a patagucci men's medium down sweater according to BPL's recent test ... so the EB FA contains an extra ounce of down ...

one other point for all the climbing ladies in here ... even the Mens Small downlight has more down than the Womens XL downlight ... so if you arent as worried about that slimfit, you may want to consider the men's size if it fits for that extra down (warmth) ... i think this is true of most brands

Mens

Downlight Hoodie Pullover is 4.5 oz down weight
Downlight Sweater S-3.8 oz., M-4.05 oz., L-4.37 oz. XL-5.02 oz.
Tall Downlight Sweater L-4.62 oz. XL-4.95 oz. XXL- 5.29 oz.
Downlight Vest S-2.09 oz., M-2.29 oz., L-2.46 oz., XL-2.7 oz, XXL-2.9 oz.
Tall Downlight Vest L-2.6 oz., XL 2.8 oz., XXL-3.19 oz.

Womens

Peak XV Down Jacket XS-9.22 oz., S-9.64 oz., M-10.07 oz. XL-10.61 oz. XXL-11.21 oz.
Downlight Sweater S-2.48 oz., M-2.63 oz., L-2.80 oz., XL-2.99 oz.
Petite Dowlight Sweater XS-2.38 oz. S-2.48 oz. M-2.63 oz. L-2.80 oz. XL-2.99 oz.
Tall Dowlight Sweater M-2.63 oz. L-2.80 oz. XL-2.99 oz.

backpackinglight.com/cgi-bi…;skip_to_post=347674#347674

Woodchuck
Are Dachstein sweaters still available and if so where?
Thanks