Emergency hauling with an ATC Guide?
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I'm familiar with building 3:1's using a grigri but I can't figure out how to haul with my new atc guide using a prusik and a redirect. Any tips? What are you using for a progress capture device? I tried hauling with it today in guide mode but it didn't work that well. |
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I would recommend using a Garda Hitch. |
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What does your garda hitch accomplish that the ATC in guide mode can't? |
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bwalt822 wrote:What does your garda hitch accomplish that the ATC in guide mode can't? You need to provide more details on how you were trying to use the ATC guide.Using it in guide mode to belay a 2nd. |
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Towards the end of this video there's a section where he demonstrates using a prusik and reverso as a ratchet... |
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Jonathan Callahan wrote:Towards the end of this video there's a section where he demonstrates using a prusik and reverso as a ratchet... youtube.com/watch?v=3VXfrIA… Sorry it's 7 minutes long, but it provides a clear demonstration of what I think you're looking for.Great video! I searched youtube before posting but couldn't find anything. This is actually exactly how I tried it although I didn't have much of a load on the end. I'll have to try it again with a heavier load and see if it works. The problem was the rope wasn't running through the guide after hauling. |
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I have used a reverso3 this way to get a friends girlfriend past a few moves on a climb when she froze. |
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If you're belaying the 2nd off the anchor you're going to be pulling up to haul. The redirect was simply a carabiner in the top shelf to be able to pull down or attach a foot loop/body weight to haul with. Sounds like that would have saved your hands some. Or maybe that's what took too much weight off the ATC so the rope wasn't passing through smoothly. It would have probably worked better with the redirect biner in the masterpoint. I'll have to mess with it again tomorrow. |
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The ATC guide in guide mode will act as a ratchet ("progress capture device") in much the same way as a gri-gri or a second friction hitch. |
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Will Gordon wrote:The ATC guide in guide mode will act as a ratchet ("progress capture device") in much the same way as a gri-gri or a second friction hitch. To set it up, put a friction hitch such as a prussik or autobloc on the climber's strand, clip a biner to it, clip the brake strand through it and pull. He demonstrates it in the last minute of the video. There is increased friction through the guide, so a 3:1 won't seem the same as it does with a gri-gri. If you are hauling dead weight, you will almost certainly need to use a 5:1 or a 6:1. Some people like to redirect the strand they are pulling through the anchor so that they can pull down to raise. I prefer to pull up so that I can use my legs...much less tiring.If you pull down you can build a foot loop or better yet clip it into your harness and use your body weight. |
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Rick Blair wrote:Moral of the story.... I don't think its supposed to be easy, more to help someone get past a move or 2 not haul them up an entire pitch.Exactly! Cinches, gris, guide, reversos all work for this, but they all SUCK for long distances. They work as "ratchets" but they also put a lot of friction in the system. This is why big wallers used a pulley with a cam to haul pigs. If your experience with doing this is that is worked, but not well...Well, it worked about as well as it will work. One trick if the second is not far away from the anchors is to lower the brake strand down to him in a giant bight, and have him clip that into his belay loop. Now, take the free end of that bight and redirect it into the top anchor. That way, he can pull down with you. If you have trouble envisioning this, I can email a diagram. Evan |
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Evan Horvath aka Evan1984 wrote: Exactly! Cinches, gris, guide, reversos all work for this, but they all SUCK for long distances. They work as "ratchets" but they also put a lot of friction in the system. This is why big wallers used a pulley with a cam to haul pigs. If your experience with doing this is that is worked, but not well...Well, it worked about as well as it will work. One trick if the second is not far away from the anchors is to lower the brake strand down to him in a giant bight, and have him clip that into his belay loop. Now, take the free end of that bight and redirect it into the top anchor. That way, he can pull down with you. If you have trouble envisioning this, I can email a diagram. EvanThat sounds like a pretty good idea. Normally when hauling (not climbing) I'm using a petzl ID/shunt/fixe for a 3:1 and it's pretty easy, maybe I'm just spoiled. |
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Full disclosure, I had put rope drag in my system on purpose in that example. I placed a piece of pro so she would not follow the rope into terrain that was too hard for her. That was my only real world use. I have practiced hauling people with this before and it is better w/o the drag but not much better. |
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Nick Mardirosian wrote: If you pull down you can build a foot loop or better yet clip it into your harness and use your body weight.also, pulling downward in a rescue situation can save you alot of work if the "rescuee" is conscious. once the tail end gets within reach of the victim, they can aid your efforts by pulling with you to increase the speed of rescue. again, only if they are awake and able to help also, the idea of redirecting the pully system, as i understand it, is that each time the rope doubles back, something like 50% of the dead weight is reduced. please correct me if im mistaken |
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a redirect is not going to reduce the load any only "redirect" the direction of pull. To lighten the load you need mechanical advantage. |
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David Hertel wrote: also, the idea of redirecting the pully system, as i understand it, is that each time the rope doubles back, something like 50% of the dead weight is reduced. please correct me if im mistakenIn a perfect world, a 2:1 would cut it in half. A 3:1 to a third etc etc. BUT, every system has friction which makes it not quite so advantageous. Rolling pulleys reduce friction. Shear reduction devices do to a lesser extent. Just running the rope over the tight bend of a carabiner adds a lot of friction relatively. If you plan on hauling like this a lot, you can get a very simple plastic pulley from petzl that fits onto an oval biner. Or, DMM makes a carabiner with a built in pulley called a revolver. For the average short haul situation though, carabiners are fine. Just remember that everytime you redirect you add friction, so there becomes a point where you work against yourself. |
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Given the title of this post being an emergency, basically do the best you can to keep yourself and the system safe, doing no further harm; My first thought is if it were an emergency and there was time to plan out and implement a dead-weighted uphaul, there's certainly time to hit the PLB, make a phone call, &/or yell for assistance. Most hurt people don't want to be touched or jostled around as they know their bodies better than anyone and uphauling is going to be a lot of movement and bouncing; but maybe the urgent move is the right one, it's a matter of assessment where every situation is different. However reading the OP & responses, seems more like a convenience matter to me as just a partner having some troubles with a section of terrain. |
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Mark Nelson wrote:The Guide has worked for me as a capture though it's not the most efficient, it's been effective enough for me to do partner hauls if needed to at least get out of a terrain problem.One of the first times i took my wife (then just my girlfriend) on multipitch, I got her in a little over her head. I almost always belay in guide mode. I had a tibloc with me and set up a quick Z-pulley reduction and was able to give her a bit of a "power belay" to get her through a hard part. I don't know that I'd want to do a full-on haul that way though, there is alot of friction. Definitely worth-while to know how to do it in a pinch though. I suppose you could do a 2:1 ratchet system if you've got enough gear to build it and just use the atc guide as a capture device; it's unweighted when you pull the rope thru. Just sub out the protraxxion shown in this picture here Without pulleys, i don't know that this system will be any more efficient, at least the rope isn't rubbing on itself and the belay device as you try to lift. (note - i've never done this or used that haul system) |
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This video actually shows a significant error. |
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I wouldn't call it as much a significant error with the cord size he's using. But yes, I'm more in the habit of keeping the mainline in the anchor system, previously posted. When you switch to something like 5mm for rescue cord, then I'd be more critical as the cord is intended to be accessory to the mainline taking the load. |
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What is "emergency hauling"? I've been climbing for over 20 years and have never had to do this, should I be worried? |