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Emergency hauling with an ATC Guide?


NickinCO · · colorado · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 155
Beagle wrote:What is "emergency hauling"? I've been climbing for over 20 years and have never had to do this, should I be worried?
Wouldn't want you to worry too much! Labeled "emergency" I guess because if I was planning on doing any hauling it wouldn't be with an ATC. ;)

My fiance loves climbing but sometimes gets a little afraid of heights on very exposed routes. She's doing really good getting over it but sometimes she still freezes up.
David Hertel · · Haines, Alaska · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 785
Mark Nelson wrote: Dave, it depends on your direction of travel; the reason why you're thinking of a load reduction by redirect is by doing a lowering, whereas an uphaul this friction would then work against you. Maybe the redirect you're thinking is more going from a 3:1, to a 5 or more; in which adding mechanical advantage is different than the redirect.
ok... i get how excess friction hinders your hauling efforts, but now im confused about the whole redirect thing. doesnt adding a mechanical advantage redirect the line? also causing more friction as the rope passes through each added biner?
NickinCO · · colorado · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 155
David Hertel wrote: ok... i get how excess friction hinders your hauling efforts, but now im confused about the whole redirect thing. doesnt adding a mechanical advantage redirect the line? also causing more friction as the rope passes through each added biner?
Not sure if I understand your question but a mechanical advantage involves redirecting the line, but a redirect doesn't necessarily have any mechanical advantage. When building a mechanical advantage (3:1, 4:1, 6:1 etc etc) the mechanical advantage outweighs the additional friction put on the rope if using carabiners for the system. The best option is to use pulleys instead of biners if you know you'll be hauling.
DannyUncanny · · Vancouver · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 100

I've used the reverso to make a quick 3:1 for pulling my girlfriend over an overhang. I just dropped the slack from the brake strand down with a pulley to clip to her harness.

I can tell you from experience, that hauling your partner up a climb like a sack of potatoes does terrible things to your relationship. A much better approach is to stick to climbs within everyone's ability.

Stucker · · Centennial, CO · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 75

I hope this is a very short hijack: Besides reading and practicing this stuff on my own or with a patient climbing buddy, how can one learn about these and other rigging principles/techniques etc? Does anyone in Denver get together and practice these things in someone's garage? Or better yet, in a bar? I tried a similar setup to the one in the video in my ex-girlfriends bedroom one time. The lawyers are sorting out the details and I'm not allowed to say anymore... (She was a big girl and I underestimated both the required mechanical advantage and the absorption capacity of the matress.)

NickinCO · · colorado · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 155
Stucker wrote:I hope this is a very short hijack: Besides reading and practicing this stuff on my own or with a patient climbing buddy, how can one learn about these and other rigging principles/techniques etc? Does anyone in Denver get together and practice these things in someone's garage? Or better yet, in a bar? I tried a similar setup to the one in the video in my ex-girlfriends bedroom one time. The lawyers are sorting out the details and I'm not allowed to say anymore... (She was a big girl and I underestimated both the required mechanical advantage and the absorption capacity of the matress.)
If you're really interested in learning rigging/etc check out sprat.org/ to see if they offer any classes in your area. I'm a level 1 tech and although you aren't using the same equipment a lot of the stuff transfers pretty easily to climbing. The tech 1 certification was a super intensive 1 week class with a lot of time on rope and it cost me $400. If you want you can probably put it to use as a job/something on the side. Most level 1's make 20-25/hour. If there are no SPRAT classes in your area check irata.org/
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 525

I think improvised hauling is a technique of absolute last resort for extreme emergencies when all options have been exhausted. With dynamic rather than static ropes and without edge rollers and pullies, there will be too much friction in the system for there to be any mechanical advantage and you may periodically have to haul the stretch out of the system.

Probably the best you can hope for from an improvised 3:1 system is 2:1, and that's without any edge or rock friction. Add a Reverso or Garda clutch (it certainly isn't a "hitch") and I'd guess you're well under 2:1, again without rock or edge friction.

The higher theoretical mechanical advantage systems are more complex to set up properly so that everything has appropriate room to move, and require very good anchors. Friction losses in an improvised system mean that there is no point in going beyond 5:1, and even there the best you can hope for is probably an effective 3:1 with no rock or edge friction. Of course, you still have the 5:1 stroke disadvantage, meaning that you'll get maybe 7 inches of upward motion for every three-foot haul you manage.

It is perhaps a slightly different topic to assert, at least in my opinion, that any party who resorts to hauling a completely healthy person more than perhaps a foot or two past a single move is really doing something very wrong, either in being there in the first place, or in overlooking far more sensible options, or in failing to train the second appropriately to help themselves.

Stucker · · Centennial, CO · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 75

Nick, I really am interested and I will check out those sites today. Thanks, for posting them.

Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266
rgold wrote:It is perhaps a slightly different topic to assert, at least in my opinion, that any party who resorts to hauling a completely healthy person more than perhaps a foot or two past a single move is really doing something very wrong, either in being there in the first place, or in overlooking far more sensible options, or in failing to train the second appropriately to help themselves.
You are 100% correct. The person in my story should not have been on the given terrain. Total error in judgment on my part created the whole situation. I learned several hard lessons that day.

Hauling past a few difficult moves is great for this system.
Gaz · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 5
Evan1984 wrote: Exactly! Cinches, gris, guide, reversos all work for this, but they all SUCK for long distances. They work as "ratchets" but they also put a lot of friction in the system. This is why big wallers used a pulley with a cam to haul pigs. If your experience with doing this is that is worked, but not well...Well, it worked about as well as it will work. One trick if the second is not far away from the anchors is to lower the brake strand down to him in a giant bight, and have him clip that into his belay loop. Now, take the free end of that bight and redirect it into the top anchor. That way, he can pull down with you. If you have trouble envisioning this, I can email a diagram. Evan
Evan, great idea. (S)He can also use the pulley effect (2:1) to haul her/himself too. The climber just has to pull on the belay side (from their perspective).
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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