Bad Decision in RMNP

Bad, bad idea !

There's nothing wrong with another bolt route in RMNP, there's plenty of classics both on Lumpy and the High Peaks, but on a tiny little face not much taller than the boulder problems at Chaos ?

I've looked at that face many times over the past 30 yrs., thought next time, I'll set up a TR and try it, but always fail to since it seems nothing more than a highball boulder problem when compared to the other dozens of routes within 1/4 mi of there.

"Legal" or not, there will be eventual problems there forcing it to be chopped. The matter of trampling all the vegetation and a user spur trail does not go over well with the powers that be. Ask the developers of the Palisades, or the issues with bouldering in Lory and Chaos.

Once the Park Service notices that all of the flower gardens at the base have been destroyed, there will be a big sign put up, "Area Closed for Reclamation" , and since it's on one of the heaviest used/most patrolled trails in the Park, it won't take long.

Blake Cash wrote:Maybe not the most sound decision in bolting, but whatever. Bolts are expensive, for sure...I'm pretty picky about where I put mine, wouldn't have put them there, but you guys did, so I hope you enjoyed the route at least? You guys are taking this shit way too seriously. It's a 40 foot tall cliff. Looks like a turd, for sure...but the park is far from pristine...it's a tourist zoo for christ sakes.

You are so very very wrong in your view of the park, and obvious lack of respect for it. It's a national treasure, and a wee wrong route next to a heavily traveled trail will do nothing but have the park staff reconsider their established climbing regs regarding bolting, and access. The whole thing is a big mess.

Yeah, I agree with Dave. How can anyone think that the park is not pristine. Sure, around any major trailhead you'll see tons of people but all you need to do is put in a little extra effort and you can get away from the madness. I just spent a couple nights way back in Glacier Gorge and didn't see a single other soul around. Me and my friend even commented about how the world population is close to 7 billion now but we are the only two people back here. It's still possible to get away from it all but the average american doesn't want to put the effort into it.

Maturing in the world of climbing is a lengthy and evolving process. What is good today is not so good tomorrow. You look to your peers for support and guidance, seems they've spoken. Lets see how these tots mature and if they grow from this experience.

While the consensus regarding this route is clear enough, it seems to me the issue will keep coming back. There are many much bigger walls and formations in the Park suitable for hard sport routes which eventually will be explored. The local climbing community might want to think about how this should be handled.

So the point has been made, almost a 100% consensus, we all love new routes and the hard work that goes into them, but the negatives far out weigh the productivity of this routes establishment.

Dave Bohn AKA old fart brings up the most valid of impact arguments. So close to the trail, if this did become traveled, the base vegetation will be gone in no time, from the climbers and the tourists that walk of the trail just a little bit to come talk to the climbers and ask there questions. So it will be closed for restoration in no time.

MAV???????

Where are you man, I know this thread has been harsh, but after all these comments, do you have anything to say, You did post here, Take part in the discussion. Have you had time to think about this. We all make mistakes, Lets here your thoughts?

Dave Hurst wrote: You are so very very wrong in your view of the park, and obvious lack of respect for it. It's a national treasure, and a wee wrong route next to a heavily traveled trail will do nothing but have the park staff reconsider their established climbing regs regarding bolting, and access. The whole thing is a big mess.

I disagree with you...hope that's ok and I'm not going to get lambasted for having a different opinion. And thanks for putting words in my mouth.

Just playing the devils advocate here, but seems like a bigger issue would be placing bolts up on some pristine, (read not next to a major highway foot trail) tall cliff might be a bigger concern than this little route. Are these 4-5 bolts a waste? Sure they are...you've got a sea of rock to pick and choose from and this is what you pick? Come on, you already hiked an hour and a half...use some vision. But this highly traveled zones of the park are trampled , trashed and far from pristine. I have the utmost respect from the park, but just because it's outside and has mountains surrounding it doesn't make it 'pristine'.

I'm a retired poser now. This makes me glad I'm retired.

I remember bailing off of Cathedral Wall in Winter on a new route attempt. The scene flipped on us and the wall was very snowy and icy. Cracks were choked with ice, it was very Patagonian for me at the time. I/we were 5 pitches up. I put 2 bolts in to get down. One was a spinner cuz I was freezing.

I felt so lame for drilling.

I wish I could distill my feelings from that day better and put it into words.

RMNP is special, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

Style still matters foolios!

johnL wrote:Please tell me that none of these send masters are screamers.

Why not expose the general public to the whole enchilada of sport climbing? Bet they go shirtless too.

I wouldn't worry too much about devegetating. First, I would bet after the first one these boys are probably a lot more demotivated to spend an afternoon tapping away for a 2nd uninspired nondescript Castlewood sized roped boulder problem. Second, who is going to bother getting on it? 99.9% Park climbers passing by will have a real agenda and not be interested in wasting time on this. Only a moron would make this "wall" a day-trip destination. If they had used the bolts for nothing but TR anchors then maybe enough folks would go there to get the 3' wide dirt zone going, but even then, so what? How many acres are in the park?

I see what these kids did as a giant "why bother?", but nothing more. Its funny to see the immense amount of panty-bunching though, it'll keep the proctologist's busy for weeks extracting. I guess when you rap-drill in the very heart of Tradiban Country, you should expect a nuclear reaction.

Rob Kepley wrote:Yeah, I agree with Dave. How can anyone think that the park is not pristine. Sure, around any major trailhead you'll see tons of people but all you need to do is put in a little extra effort and you can get away from the madness. I just spent a couple nights way back in Glacier Gorge and didn't see a single other soul around. Me and my friend even commented about how the world population is close to 7 billion now but we are the only two people back here. It's still possible to get away from it all but the average american doesn't want to put the effort into it.

+1...I don't think I could have gathered more than a cup full of trash the entire time I've traveled in RMNP. And most of that is probably stuff that accidently falls out of your pack or pocket.

15 or so years ago I was in Arches Natl Park and saw a girl trying to scratch/carve a love note into the base of delicate Arch. Tons of people were around and no one said anything. My sister ran down there and chewed her out and then ran down the trail ahead of her and got the attention of a Ranger who then took over. You could argue that to the general public this was no big deal since no one else there that day took action, she had been at her work for a while.

Funny about the defenders of these bolters want to make a trad vs sport thing out of this. Is that what this is about or are they just trying to stir things up? Maybe they bolted the real FA's high ball boulder problem. Seems that some are having fun with this but I think it's pretty serious.

As far as the harsh criticism goes, they posted on an internet database..... with a comment section..... so people commented. Sorry it didn't turn out the way they had hoped.

Tony B wrote: So what now? My advice to the bolters is: Remove the bolts, apologize for any offense, since that was not the intention, and then tell people who are on your case so bad.

Take T.Bub's advice Mav. Send that nice hardware to a more aesthetic line! Psyched for your drive and creativity, don't let anyone on this thread bring you down!

Dan

This all reminds me of the time I got arrested for trying to rap drill Lincoln's face on Mount Rushmore. In my defense, it is a pretty blank face, the only availabe pro was in his left nostril and a scary flaring crack in his beard. I had to pay restitution and my credit it still in the toilet.

The response to this has gotten beyond ridiculous. If so many of you that are posting are so pissed, then go chop the bolts yourself. The debate over this matter ended a lot of posts ago - this thread is nothing more than a public lynching now. Stupid? Yes. Ill advised? Yes. We're in consensus. Now let's remember rule #1, stop flaming these kids, and move on. This thread reminds me of something that should be found in the politics section of CNN.com, not the web's leading climbing forum.

i don't really think the response has gotten ridiculous for the most part. most of the people posting have been fairly civil. perhaps it is the overwhelming number of people that are voicing their concern that is bothering you?

here are a couple of my thoughts on the matter. first, some of the people supporting the route (or at least posing an argument of some sort against those that oppose the route) seem to be trying to attribute the criticism to a 'trad versus sport' sort of thing. although rap bolting in the park isn't something that has been embraced by the community, i don't think that it is the primary concern here. i think most people are appalled that they did it so close to a popular hiking trail, with RM ranger staff and a bunch of tourists as witnesses. this leads to my second point....

i am somewhat alarmed that the people that put up the route assume that the hikers and rangers were enamored with what they were doing. despite meeting the letter of the law, this seems to be extremely poor judgement in my opinion. i base this on the fact that most people look negatively on other people doing 'fringe activities' ie, something they wouldn't do themselves. for example, when you see an extremely obese person eating a chili dog and fries. you think 'what a complete idiot', or when you are fishing on a creek and some annoying mullet headed folks drive their monster truck across the creek. no i am not admiring your truck, i'm thinking you are a complete retard.

if 20 people were watching you put this route up, i would bet at LEAST 10 of them had a bad feeling about it. you only need ONE of these people to write a nasty letter to RMNP, or write a scathing editorial to the denver post to end up with climbing restrictions in the park. look at the dean potter fiasco. even if it was legal for him to climb delicate arch, doing so in front of a bunch of people would have been a bad idea. the repercussions of his endeavor are still being dealt with at arches NP.

if climbers want to avoid access problems, one of the best things to do is to TRY to be like children during the early 1900s - neither seen, nor heard. i'm not saying that climbers should only climb where absolutely nobody will see us, but rather that we shouldn't flaunt what we are doing and beg for attention.

i'm hoping that the folks that put up the route will see that the majority of those that have posted have been against the route. everybody makes mistakes at one point or another. it is how you set the record straight on your mistakes that counts. please remove the route and find another area that isn't as heavily traveled by non-climbers and give it another shot.

slim wrote: or when you are fishing on a creek and some annoying mullet headed folks drive their monster truck across the creek. no i am not admiring your truck, i'm thinking you are a complete retard.

Now THAT sh*t made me laugh. We have monster trucks in northern CA, only they are driven by douchnozzles with oversize white sunglasses and bro bra clothing....I guess they are a cross between a snowboarder and a redneck?

I haven't commented on this topic yet, but I have to say that Slim's post, in particular the last two paragraphs, is well reasoned and even handed. I would agree that these kids (I hope they are kids) probably didn't understand why what they were doing was a bad idea. I think the best way to get this settled is to gently nudge these guys to do the right thing (flaming them harshly isn't needed and probably won't help.) I think posts like Slim's exemplify this tact well. Everyone makes mistakes and that's okay; just make sure you apologize and correct your actions. In response, we as a community should try and treat these guys with civility and thank them for having the guts to correct their screw up.

Mike Lane wrote: Bet they go shirtless too.

Hey, easy there. This isn't the gym, you can't just walk around with your shirt off.

Why are lions mounting and monkeys jacking off okay for the tourons at the zoo, but you witness bolting in action and they shriek and run away in terror?? Oh look mommy he's .... oh my

Obviously almost everyone who has posted is against this route. I'm not necessarily for it. Still, expanding on a note I made on the route page, that at least some others seem to agree with:

I generally don't see non-climbers in public places express negativity toward climbing. I see the opposite--expression of interest and general well wishing.

I seriously doubt that a substantial number of hikers give a damn about a bolted route close to a hiking trail. If some of you disagree, I suppose you've had different experiences than I have, that's cool. One person on the other thread said there was a poll saying that climbing is looked at as the 3rd most destructive activity on public lands. I asked for a source for that, didn't get a response, and frankly don't believe it. If new evidence comes in, I'd certainly be willing to revise my opinion.

It sort of bothers me when many climbers treat Joe Sixpack's naive questions about climbing with contempt. I may get a little tired when asked for the umpteenth time if I "made it to the top" or asked what the crashpad is for, but I try to be polite and non-mocking. I note that giving smartass answers to non-climbers questions has been the subject of threads on this website. I don't think the posters were joking.

Seems to me that if the goal is to maintain climbing access, it's more important for climbers to be generally positive toward nonclimbers rather than to try to hide from them. Climbing is nothing to be ashamed of, and by the same token, it's not a fringe activity only engaged in by shadowy characters, at least not in Colorado.

What the people who put the route in did is legal, didn't bother the land managers, and to the best of our knowledge, hasn't bothered anyone other than climbers. Just another way to look at this.

So the consensus seems to be against these guys but now I'm just trying to figure out which is the most convincing argument.

1. Don't upset the guards(rangers/park service) or they'll take away our privileges.
2. It's always been that way and my generation's ethics should become your own...because they're right.

Just let me know, I'm cool either way.

pfwein wrote: I generally don't see non-climbers in public places express negativity toward climbing. I see the opposite--expression of interest and general well wishing. I seriously doubt that a substantial number of hikers give a damn about a bolted route close to a hiking trail.

See my story above about Arches, most people won't express any opinion even if they see a known illegal activity taking place right in front of them. If you can convince yourself that there would not be any non climbers bothered by seeing rock drilled right in front of them in a National Park, what do you base that on? It seems highly likely to me based on common sense. It only takes one vocal person.

Edit:
There is no need for bolts here ie safety
There is no utility for bolts ie a pitch too long to be toproped or too dangerous to reach the top by scrambling.
There is no convenience.
This does not seem much different than someone randomly drilling small holes in the rock around the Park except vandalism was not their intent.