How do I keep my head straight?

You can intentionally fall on a bomber cam or nut or bolt outside all day long . Please justify your reason for saying that you can't, since you haven't stated your reason.

Peter Springs wrote:You can intentionally fall on a bomber cam or nut or bolt outside all day long . Please justify your reason for saying that you can't, since you haven't stated your reason.

Such undying faith in your gear placements can end in your death. Know why? Shit happens. Gear pulls (killed a climber on Werksupp a year ago). Ropes cut on edges (killed a climber in Eldo a week ago). You get a leg behind your rope, flip, and hit your head or you hit a ledge. (killed a sport climber in RRG recently).

Need more evidence? You're likely to get it.

I find this whole "$h!t Happens" this a little extreme. Not that it doesn't, but you could use that argument against anything...I won't cross the street even when I have a green light, because hey "$h!t happens" and someone might run that light and kill me, Yeah it could happen but you typically have faith that the person who is stopped there and sees you is not going to all of a sudden run you over for no reason. You stop before crossing and assess the the situation and decide if it is safe to cross, right? (does not apply to 2 year olds, since they will just charge given the chance). For what its worth, Stich says you could do it in the gym, but all the things he describes can happen in the gym as well, draws have failed, people get flipped upside down, as he says "$h!t happens"

The whole point is that there are times when it is OK to fall and times when it is not. Being able to determine this can really help with getting your head in the right place if you can say, "hey, it's OK if I fall here, I've looked at the situation and the gear is great, there is nothing to hit and my leg is not going to be behind the rope", trust in your belay is another subject all together. There is nothing wrong with going out and taking some fall to get comfortable with falling as long as you take the time to make sure that you are doing so in the safest possible situation.

On another note, I would say that "acceptable risk" (which is what you should be looking at) is different for everyone. However, my guess would be that most of us would stretch what is acceptable more in climbing than say in crossing the street.

Finally saw another mention for Arno.

And since we are discussing this subject in the beginner forum, I would say in general a beginner is not ready to assess when and where a fall would not be serious. Hell, many of us have been surprised to see friends take a whip and suddenly get pretty banged up on what appeared to be safe terrain. The fact is, falls in general are much riskier than most give them credit for being. And there in lies the rub.

But I do agree, you can mitigate your risks by plugging in a second piece, taking a look down for objects you might hit, telling your belayer "watch me" or letting them keep you loose so you don't pendulum hard into a wall, etc. But it's foolish to do this constantly. Again, just learn to get the climbing dialed in and you are much better off.

-Another good reason to pick up one of Arno's books or take one of his clinics.
-I really don't think anyone is proposing to do constantly go out falling, as in all day or on every route, though I could be wrong about this. More like, every so often until you are comfortable with it find a place where you can do it safely, such as the gym or an overhanging section of a route, sport or trad, set it up so it is as safe as possible and take a couple falls, when you get comfortable with the feeling you will be able to try that much harder when you are put in a situation where you might fall.

Stich wrote: Such undying faith in your gear placements can end in your death. Know why? Shit happens. Gear pulls (killed a climber on Werksupp a year ago). Ropes cut on edges (killed a climber in Eldo a week ago). You get a leg behind your rope, flip, and hit your head or you hit a ledge. (killed a sport climber in RRG recently). Need more evidence? You're likely to get it.

So you read a bunch of forums about accidents; I get that. But saying "A so B" is a flawed argument in your examples. A rope got chopped on one; a belayer didn't use a Cinch properly on another. How in any way does that mean that you can't trust a piece of pro? The accidents you cite don't even relate to the discussion at hand. How in any way do any of these relate to falling on great gear placements? They don't, they are completely different reasons for dying.

FYI, we are not talking about taking repeated falls on marginal gear- no one is saying that, though you seem to be implying that any piece of gear is marginal.

I think it's ironic that you are basically saying "be able to free-solo something, or you could die". Really, downclimb over taking a fall because YOU don't trust that gear can hold you up? You just sound like you have never gotten to a place as a climber where you know what is a good placement and what is not.

Yes, with a good piece of pro you can fall on it all day long and it won't give out. It's simple physics. Any climber's job is to inspect their gear so they can decide if a fall will be a problem or not. If you can't handle that, then don't climb.

Stich wrote:Again, just learn to get the climbing dialed in and you are much better off.

"Just never fall, it's safer." LOL. How over-obvious is that statement.

FYI, we are not talking about taking repeated falls on marginal gear- no one is saying that, though you seem to be implying that any piece of gear is marginal...

Yes, with a good piece of pro you can fall on it all day long and it won't give out. It's simple physics.

Wow. Simple physics, is it? Vaya con dios...

Yip, simple. Hex, nut in a constriction. Cam in a nice parallel crack. Simple. Do you guys seriously have no idea of what a great placement is?

Just curious, Peter, but how many years have you been climbing? I have been at it for 14 myself, not that this is a long time. I have also had friends die at my feet that, oh, trusted their gear a little too much (they were aiding). So dismiss my opinion if you like, it matters not to me. We all make our own beds.

But you people that come out here telling new climbers to fall on their gear so they will learn to trust it are doing them a disservice.

And here's another example, not from a forum as you seem to think I get my information, about so-called "bomber gear." A friend of mine once set up a rappel on a "bomber" nut on Mt. Powell. He swore it was not going to pull, so bomber it was. But my other friend insisted he leave a second piece. Lo and behold, "bomber" nut pulled, he fell, and his life was saved by the backup piece.

You can place a piece of gear and it might look great, might resist pulling out on a test, might take weight. But fall on it at a weird angle, or with the wrong direction of pull as in a zipper situation and, ha ha ha. You get the picture. And it gets very complicated how gear will act in a fall quickly.

But hey, do what you want. I've said my piece for those that wanted to listen. You others climb they way you like.

Darren-

You want to learn to have confidence in your gear? Lead a straightforward C1 aid pitch. There is no better way to learn what gear to trust and what not to.

Don't underestimate food and water. Nothing will kill a lead head instantly like running out of calories. Eat before you are hungry.

Have fun, looks like you are feeling better about stuff. That's great.

Stich wrote:Just curious, Peter, but how many years have you been climbing? I have been at it for 14 myself, not that this is a long time. I have also had friends die at my feet that, oh, trusted their gear a little too much (they were aiding). So dismiss my opinion if you like, it matters not to me. We all make our own beds. But you people that come out here telling new climbers to fall on their gear so they will learn to trust it are doing them a disservice. And here's another example, not from a forum as you seem to think I get my information, about so-called "bomber gear." A friend of mine once set up a rappel on a "bomber" nut on Mt. Powell. He swore it was not going to pull, so bomber it was. But my other friend insisted he leave a second piece. Lo and behold, "bomber" nut pulled, he fell, and his life was saved by the backup piece.

I've been climbing for 20 years, not that that's a long time. I fail to see how aid climbing is trusting gear in the same context as I'm talking about. Just in that comment alone reveals that you seem to think that somehow A4 is fine for whipping on gear, and somehow aid is synonymous with trusting any old gear placement out there. Sheesh.

I think you do a disservice to tell people that they can't trust good gear placements. Maybe you spent 10 years slowly working your way up from 5.6 to 5.8 so that you could feel so comfortable so that you knew that you would never fall and never risk getting hurt. That's fine. It's certainly one strategy. But it's just as silly to say "climb inside your limits so you know you won't fall" when infact a slip even on terrain that is "in your limits" is equally as likely to happen.

To say that falling on good gear is highly dangerous is silly, which is what you continue to argue. Basically you are telling people that they should do anything other than ever trusting even good gear placements, including Downclimbing, which often presents even more dangerous scenarios. If you can't trust even good gear placements to fall on, even if you've got another good piece after it keeping you from hitting the deck, then you shouldn't climb.

Yeah, it's good to be skeptical, and you should have back ups and multiple pieces between you and the deck. But in no way does the fact that because precautions and judgements need to be taken mean that you need to recite the mantra of "never fall, never fall". There are times where it's fine to fall, and times where it's not. A blanket statement of "never trust your gear" is just setting yourself up to not evaluate placements... and beyond. According to that thought process you can never trust your anchors, never trust your partners, never trust any random elements present in climbing. People that are that un-able to trust gear to hold in good placements probably shouldn't even be climbing.

From what I can tell, your argument stems from non-redundant situations and marginal placements. Again, that's not what I'm talking about. Even your non-backed up rappel argument doesn't fit into what I'm talking about. If you haven't set up a system that is redundant at keeping you off the deck, you should be worried. Let's hope that's not what any of us are advocating... I'm sure not, even though that's what you continue to cram into my mouth.

You still don't get what I am saying Peter, so one last time. You have really no idea in the end what gear is that good and what is somewhere in between. Don't believe me? Fine, go place 100 pieces and fall on every one of them. Make sure they are all great pieces of course and vary where you put them. I guarantee some will fail, and even the ones you would have bet were the best.

But really, how often to you fall on your gear anyway? I'm going to bet you have logged fewer than 12 falls over the 20 years. Am I right?

Josh Olson wrote:I'm upset nobody has mentioned this...FALL, FALL, FALL, and FALL again. In my experience, I just took a good amount of whippers in the gym, then a bunch outside. Got my head right. Get on a 5.8 or 5.9 that you are comfy with and drop. After you can take a two foot fall, make it three, then four, then ten. If you can't take a controlled fall, how are you going to take an accidental one?

Some folks I know smoke "reefers" and that seems to help them with the fear of falling too. What do I know though, I'm just the Mtn Project troll that gets censored frequently.

Stich wrote:You still don't get what I am saying Peter, so one last time. You have really no idea in the end what gear is that good and what is somewhere in between. Don't believe me? Fine, go place 100 pieces and fall on every one of them. Make sure they are all great pieces of course and vary where you put them. I guarantee some will fail, and even the ones you would have bet were the best. But really, how often to you fall on your gear anyway? I'm going to bet you have logged fewer than 12 falls over the 20 years. Am I right?

Actually your argument has made me realize that really, I need to climb within my limits because if I fall, there is always a chance, however small, that my gear could come out. And the other redundant one keeping me off the deck. To solve this problem, I will climb within my limits, which also means I will never improve. However, because I will climb within my limits, I will never fall. And because I will never fall, I will never need gear, which at some point would fail on me anyway. So I will now free-solo.

Thank you for your wisdom, oh wise one!

Stich wrote:You still don't get what I am saying Peter, so one last time. You have really no idea in the end what gear is that good and what is somewhere in between. Don't believe me? Fine, go place 100 pieces and fall on every one of them. Make sure they are all great pieces of course and vary where you put them. I guarantee some will fail, and even the ones you would have bet were the best. But really, how often to you fall on your gear anyway? I'm going to bet you have logged fewer than 12 falls over the 20 years. Am I right?

So if you want to go the prick direction and throw around "how long you've been climbing" , I've been at it for 35+ years, and I'll say that this winter I fell on ONE ROUTE more then 7-8 times, on a green "0" BD C3, most between 10-20ft some significantly more) and more then 20x in those monthes and I am an absolute wimp. Also have to say that in 35+ years, I've only had gear pull once, and never in the last 15yrs and I have taken more whippers on gear then I can or care to remember.

Most people will get to a point where they can discern a good and bad placement and a good and marginal placement (now the difference between a marginal and a bad placement is not easy). If you can't after the learning period, maybe its time to find a different way of life.

If you don't want to whip while climbing on gear, that's your choice. If someone else doesn't mind taking the whipper, and they have done the risk assessment (the book, Warriors Way has a very good process for this), good for them. Its a choice, but you have to understand the real risk (and not the risk + emotion).

as an edit: remember, climbing is about making decisions and choices. You control your actions and decisions but not the outcome. Falling is an outcome, and its neither good or bad its just an outcome.

Darren -- I had a crusty old mentor also. But he was able to get me past my fear by dragging my ass up climb after climb and being even more positive about my abilities than I was. He would tell me "focus on the box" -- a box in front of me on the wall. He would tell me, you have a job to do inside that box, "focus on the job you have to do inside the box, and nothing else." Whenever I get a little sketched out now, I still follow his same advice -- the fear is there -- but I set it aside to focus on the job inside the box. Make the move, step up, whatever I have to do. I'm now happy to say that most of the time, I can climb reasonably separated from fear. You have to be able to do your job and set your fear aside. Getting better even day by day.

And, I have to say that my physical ability is SOOOO much greater than my mental ability -- and that could be true for you also. How many times have you thought you couldn't do something and yet you did??

Good luck!! and happy and fear free climbing!

Darren,
First, good to know you're working through this! Thanks for starting a (mostly) good discussion.

If you haven't already done so, definitely read Rock Warriors Way. Arno's classes are also very worth while.

One other thing to consider, take intentional rests when at a good stance instead of just blasting through the easier terrain. When you do look up, plan your next moves, then climb.

Scott

Just over the past couple of months, I've surprised myself with how strong my mind has grown. I've kept my focus "inside the box" as Liv mentioned and kept my mindset positive, pushing out those "If I fall here, I'm ten feet above my last placement" thoughts. And you're right in that I was able to manage those difficult moves when sweating my buns off, grunting my way through that 5.7 crux that I thought I'd never manage.

I don't pretend that I'm some sort of amazing climber, but I am improving, which I feel is the most important and valuable aspect of my climbing. I have so few opportunities to grow my mind in the way that climbing has enabled me to.

Darren -- if Rock Warrier's way doesn't turn out to be your thing (truly wasn't mine AT ALL) -- try reading Carlos Castenada's "Teaching of Don Juan" -- most of it is pretty out there, but the teachings that focus on "intent" are really helpful.