Need specific bolting info (no ethics issues, not for sport climbing)

Before my question I'd like to mention first:
Yes, I climb. No, this really has nothing to do with climbing/leading a route, but it is specific to the topic of bolting.
I have a mining claim in a remote (2hr hike from nearest road) area, and I'm looking at solutions for setting a traverse to take in myself and my gear over a series of waterfalls and pools up a steep canyon area.

I was just up there last weekend, and ended up using some natural pro to set a traverse. That worked to get *ME* in and out several times that day, but now I'm looking at hauling in some equipment, as well as bringing bags/buckets of ore back down.

For my "normal" job, I own/operate a Tree Service business that specializes in hazardous dismantling, so I'm also competent at setting up rigging, and I understand the forces involved when loading a line by pulling it tight with mechanical advantage and then hanging on it.

Question is:
I'm planning on using 3/8 x 16,SS Hex Head Cap Screw

Can I safely load a hung bolt along its long axis using mechanical advantage? (yes, the friction of the hanger against the rock takes most of it, not the bolt itself. I just mean in general, is it safe to do)
If so, how many bolts would I want at minimum for a safe anchor setup doing this? 2-3? more? (I'm shooting for very acute angles between placements)

How far apart are bolts supposed to be placed from eachother, at min.?

Is there even a hand-driven holder for 3/8" bolts (1/2" bits)?

Does anyone think I should abandon my 3/8" idea and drop down to 10mm?

I'll go with that for now.

Max static load would be 200lbs. That's, what, 1300lbs of tension give or take a hundred, with a horizontal line.
Incidentally, none of these traverses would be true horizontal. They'll all be angles of some kinda, less than having the line pulled tight and level. I figure if I work it for the upper limit that adds to my buffer.
Likely using 3:1 for tensioning so as not to overdo it, just to get the slack out of my static line.

Reason I'm not sticking with the natural pro: in several areas the lack of it means that the traverse wouldn't be at a good spot or angle, and makes it much longer than is needed. Also, whats available in natural pro isn't bombproof at at least 1 end of 2 of the traverses.

I would REALLY APPRECIATE responses to this since I'm not bolting savvy. There appears to be several knowledgeable pro's on here and I can really use any advice you've got.
Not tryin to be an ass by throwing in all those details, just trying to get the regular stuff outta the way so the typical responses aren't thrown in like I'm a total rope n00b.
And yeah... I know setting these by hand is gonna be a royal pain; but if I'm camping there I've got the time.

Thanks!!

You can certainly get a 1/2" SDS type bit for a hand drill holder.

I don't have specs in front of me but a SS wedge bolt or 5 piece in that size should be plenty strong for what you're doing. Just make sure it's in solid rock.

All bolts have ratings for both pull-out and shear, and most modern 3/8" bolts have higher strength ratings in both than what you are predicting. The unknown variable is the strength of the rock, and that will determine the size of anchor bolt you require. There is no appreciable difference between 10mm and 3/8" and they are often referred to interchangeably. 3/8" hardware will be cheaper and easier to find. You can buy a hand drill pretty reasonably.

Now for the reality check. First, I think you are underestimating your load quite a bit, so I would build in at least a factor of three safety margin. I'm not an engineer though so have it checked out by someone more knowledgeable. Second, you will need intermediate anchor points at inside and outside corners as well as to support the rope over long stretches. As I am sure you know even static ropes stretch quite a bit, I am guessing you will need a bolt every 10-15 feet to minimize sag. So the crux is how do you transfer your load past these intermediate anchor points.

When you factor in the load needed to maintain tension on the rope, support 200 lbs of material and still having enough strength to provide you with fall protection I think you are talking about multiple static ropes. A steel cable would be much better for a material tram. Although 3/8" bolts will be sufficient for the intermediate anchor points I think you will need to have 1/2" at least for both of your end anchors, at least 2 and personally I wouldn't be happy without 3 anchor bolts on each side. I wouldn't trust 3/8" SS hex head screws unless you have a torque wrench or experience placing them, they are a bit weak. I would go with wedge bolts, or glue ins if the locations are damp. The compactness of the rock is a critical factor to determine the length of the anchors.

My suggestion is to buy or rent a cordless rotary hammer...Good luck.

Lets clarify a few things first.
First, with wedge and 5-pc. anchors you drill the same size as what the bolt is called, ie: a 3/8" hole for a 3/8" bolt. With the 5-pc., the cap bolt is smaller than what the bolt is called, so a 3/8" 5-pc. has a 5/16" cap bolt. Now, with drop-in anchors which are never discussed here but by far the most common used in industry, the drill size is the next size up from the bolt size (for a 3/8" drop-in you drill a 1/2" hole.)
Second, a nice fat living tree will exceed any bolt specs, consider slings when plausible.
Third, tyroleans tend to be rigged with climbing-style gear b/c that is what most climbers are familiar with. It does not mean that that gear is the best option. An engineered system at a commercial jobsite would consist of big drop-ins (like 3/4" or 7/8"), drop-forged eye bolts, and wire rope w/ a minimum of 3 clamps at each end (always remember with clamping a wire rope rig that you never "saddle a dead horse", which doesn't make any sense other than a reminder that the saddle part of the clamp rides on the main cable, not the tail). A come-along device would then be used to tension the cable.
u-clamps
rigging supplies

Kevin Stricker wrote:... First, I think you are underestimating your load quite a bit, so I would build in at least a factor of three safety margin. ...

I was going the other way with this part, depending on the mainline material, which sounds like it's nylon as opposed to cable; assuming the rock quality is adequate.

If you tension the mainline to horizontal (tensioning on a haul with 1 person on a 3:1, I'm also assuming), nylon still gives you a good sag. I think you'd be fine stacking hauls to tension in order to get more sag out, depending on what is being used for the mainline, I like 11mm. 10percent is a good sag rule; most tyrols with nylon end up having have more sag than that anyway. Even if I were looking at a guideline of a 4 safety factor, I'm fine with it.

If you do move into cable, then I'd take harder look at this.

He's got the idea of angle rigging at the anchor to distribute the load, which I think is just as good as looking at installing the more industrial sized anchor point. So, I don't see a problem in using bolts as a general idea.

Something might be worth asking is what if you wanted to move more material at a time, you could use dual-tensioned track lines. I don't know how involved the actual scene needs to be though; sounds like a hobby-type activity for the time being.

Wow, thanks for the quick responses already. And yes, this is "hobby" stuff right now. I'm actually realy enjoying doing all this, otherwise I wouldn't be up there. hehe.

Mike, I'd have to look into commercial anchors, it's true that I'm only discussing it in terms of static rope and sport climbing gear because all of that is stuff I already *have*.
Not only that, but I'm trying to watch costs and weight is an issue because it all goes on my back.
I wasn't familiar with the difference between wedge and 5pc and drop in's, so I'll have to do a bit more research.

For now I just wanted a system I could tension while running stuff in and out, which is still easily removable except for the bolts/hangers.

Also, considering a massive failure of an anchor area, there's about a 90% chance I'll be falling into water. And the longest run would only be about 30 to 40 ft, but at this point I'm looking at putting in about 4 traverses, the shortest only being about 12 to 15 feet, spanning a gap.
Oh, the only tree is about 3" diameter, and its a bit sketchy.

I'll try to put some pictures up =D Thanks for the info so far though. I wasn't expecting so much so fast, I gotta digest some of this stuff and replan as necessary.

Oh, when I mentioned about using the SS hex head cap screws, I meant hole in rock is 1/2", cap screw is 3/8", socket size 1/2"; but that'd still be using a wedging anchor.
Its 18-8 (18% chromium and 8% nickel) steel. Austenitic, not ferritic, so hopefully no rusting.
Why wouldn't you go with SS in a very wet area? What else would you use? I'm trying to stay away from aluminum bolts/hangers/

An eyebolt would be great, but I have no idea what to use that'd be rated.

How are glue-ins different?

I'm staying away from the self-drilling ones.

First, you need to pick exactly which type of anchor you are going to use, I kinda thought when you mentioned the cap bolt that you were probably not to that point of research yet. So here are the choices you have:

• Chemical (glue-in). Tricky, but when done right the strongest. Leaves an exposed threaded stud which may be removed with heat.
• Wedge. Leaves an exposed threaded stud (that at best you can pound down flush to the rock, but only if you overdrill the hole)
• 5-piece or sleeved. Uses a smaller cap bolt into the sleeve that can be removed.
• The drop-in. Another sleeve type, but you can use either all-thread, eyebolts or cap bolts.

Google all these up from both Hilti and Powers. Both sites have specification .pdf's
You only need to use stainless if its wet AND you want them there for awhile. Hot-dipped galvanized is an option to look at too. If you are just mobilizing stuff in for a month or two don't bother and stick with zinc plated.

So go and design your system and run it by us.

Therrin wrote:Oh, when I mentioned about using the SS hex head cap screws, I meant hole in rock is 1/2", cap screw is 3/8", socket size 1/2"; but that'd still be using a wedging anchor. Its 18-8 (18% chromium and 8% nickel) steel. Austenitic, not ferritic, so hopefully no rusting. Why wouldn't you go with SS in a very wet area? What else would you use?

Titanium glue-ins are pretty common in some wet areas, no?

Are you on dirt? If so dig a large hole. Pour cement in it and place a large eyebolt into the mud before it sets... No dirt? Use scrap construction lumber to build a box and fill that with cement.

I'll go do research and get back to you guys. I appreciate the input so far.

And no, this an area thats a 2 hour hike from the nearest road. No trail, some parts only accessible by swimming/climbing. So packing in concrete and wood is something I'd like to stay as far away from as possible.

Oh, I have some videos of the area up right now. I'll put links. You'll see why coming up the stream/canyon is relatively the only safe means of access.

s38.photobucket.com/albums/…;current=CIMG3794.flv

s38.photobucket.com/albums/…;current=CIMG3803.flv

s38.photobucket.com/albums/…;current=CIMG3799.flv

I realize that by posting videos, I open myself up to alot of critique. lol. The rock up there at the higher levels, above the bedrock, is mainly DG, so its not very safe to either climb or try to use cams on. It's pretty flaky. The stuff lower down near the stream level and a little above that is more solid. Some of the sections that look easily climbable, are, but not with 80lb buckets of gravel or different pieces of equipment or large duffels of gear.
Where you see the chain ladder set up next to the falls, it isn't convenient for portaging in gear, because the water level from a good 6 feet out from the base of that ladder is well over my head. (8ft deep).
The sinkhole you see near the top is one area I'll be pulling placer deposit gravels out of. Stringing a line across the top of that to use on an anti-return pulley (or prussik minding) to haul material up and out of there. The sinkhole is 15 ft deep to the bottom, underwater, and an 8 ft slick rock drop down into it.
I'm using an 18cuft pony bottle on scuba to prospect the bottom of it.
(also basic/adv/deep/night/wreck/rescue scuba cert'd), so that's not a problem.

The traverses would be VERY needed if I end up bringing in gas powered dredging equipment though. Other wise hauling in that gear would be a royal pain. Well, it'll be a pain anyway.

One suggestion I see is to not load that biner like you have it and use a bearpaw to connect those lines.

I can only assume the rock quality is adequate, otherwise this discussion will need other type of anchoring.

that looks like pretty country... where are you exactly?

Yeah Mark I was pretty sure that's the first thing someone would pick up on =D

Which is good, but even with all the stuff I hauled up there that day I was running low on biners.
At worst a biner with a radius, like the jake, would have been better to prevent multi-axis loading. What I really should've done though is made the rope running around that natural pro a bit longer, so that instead of being pulled apart, the two 8's on a bight would be pulled up next to eachother and pulling in line as close as possible.

Now that I know what I need up there it'll be better, the first time packing gear in; I was looking at my tubs and bags and piles of gear at home goin "what do I think I'll need?" and "how much of this stuff am I really gonna wanna carry?"

Which is typical I guess for new territory anyway.

I'm going to make a trip up there at the end of this week and select and photograph spots to put bolts. I wont have my bolting gear figured out before that, I'd really like to see it again with this in mind and plan accordingly.

Location: up in the mountains north of Castaic and west of Lancaster in California.

You may find this useful for the 5-piece bolts: Power-Bolt

It has info on bolt spacing, pull-out vs shear, edge distance, etc.

Also, to echo Mark's comments, you have tri-axial loading on the anchor biner. Try to prevent that at all times.

Also, I'm pretty sure that tri-axially loaded biner is not locked.

Unfortunately, I have nothing else substantive to add to this discussion - I don't really know anything about bolting. So I'm out, peace.

minor point splitting hairs, but tri-axial is different than what is shown, it's more of a potential for crossloading.

Biner wasn't locked because I had just tied the 8-on-a-bight and clipped it in after removing the pulley that was used for tensioning. At that point it was just holding my gear bags outta the water.

Thats what I hate about posting videos...you can point out small mistakes you've made, and mention how you'd do it differently....and someone will still post afterwards and rehash the same point over and over.

I'll post back to here when I have a bolting system figured out.

OH! thanks so much for the Power Bolt pdf info! That was very helpfull to save and browse through.