Ice ratings in different areas

Wow guys. Thanks for the posts and discussion. In particular, thank you Jack for the historical perspective.

....and on a side note. I understand that M16 was not given the name because it was M8x2. However, when the climb got published in Climbing/R&I, the FA's proclaimed that it was "Twice as hard as M8." This was surely to get under the skin of Mr. Gadd. As you will remember, this was around the time that "mixed climbing" was officially becoming a sport, and I think some of the older Canadian Rockies folks were poking fun at Will. My interpretation of this was that they thought the whole mixed grade thing was silly, because I think that from their perspective, the Rockies grade of 5.9 A3 IMPLIED that you better be able to climb ice, aid, and hard mixed. Oh well, Mr. Gadd did put up a hard FA on Howse Peak complete with mixed grade, so I guess times and grade schemes change even in the canadian rockies.

Best.

jack roberts wrote:Oh, and the grade and name M16 refers to fire arms NOT the fact that M8x2=M16.

I think I recall Bubba saying, with a chuckle, that M16 was because the route was twice as hard as M8.

"On March 23-27 Scott Backes, Barry Blanchard, and I climbed a new route, M-16 (twice as hard as M8), on the East Face of Howse Peak. We climbed twelve 5th class pitches up to A2 and WI 7+, connected with long sections of 4th class ground." Quote from Steve House.

From Steve's book (Beyond the Mountain):

"We named the route M-16, a play on Scott's Glock and in mockery of the popular grade of high-level difficulty road-side, bolt-protected, mixed climbing of the time: M-8."

See also Blanchard's article starting on p32 of the 2001 CAJ ("Nine Nights, Twelve Days, and Eighteen Years on Howse Peak"). His stuff is pretty good readin'. Whew.

I never understood the grades in the WI7 and higher range but I have also not come close to climbing such things. I too always assumed that ice could only get so steep and that after that it would go R then X. Bolted WI10 seems crazy but maybe relevant who knows it just seems like crazy talk right now.

RIPTIDE! Yeah Jack now there is an awesome line! All this talk about Canadian ice is bumming me out. I can't go to canada for another 4 years or so. Here's a grade for you. I climbed a full ropelength on there that was exactly like Moratorium in Cody only dead vertical to overhanging. Two 10cm screws and a tied off 13cm in the first 100+ft. Such and amazing line.

Brian,

Seems like I stand corrected. I'd heard both stories and thought the gun story was it but M8 x2 makes abit more sense.

Yeah, Bubba is a talented writer with an unusual perspective on teh sport. He's bbeen on the cutting edge for so long.

It's always fun to discuss ice grades. Keeps the blood HOT!
JACK

jack robertswrote: Ice grades start out as about the same in most areas. Colorado is much like Utah which is similar to Cody which is like Canada, etc. Canadian climbs can "feel" harder because the length of the pitches might be longer and the ice denser from the cold temps. Cody, Wyoming has a reputation of being a sand-bagged area because the climbs are steeper for longer than some other areas. Personally I think the grades in Cody are right-on but because the routes are less traveled they are more difficult. The ice climbing grades in the Ouray Ice Park don't bear much resemblance to anything outside of the ice park. The grades only reflect a range of difficulty not the actual difficulty as it pertains to other routes in other areas.. I think Colorado ice climbs suffer from popularity and so don't much get a chance to heal. It's not until you get to more remote routes that aren't chopped up that you might climb a realistic grade. Utah is much like Colorado but the ice can "feel" easier because the temps can be warmer so the ice may not be as brittle. Ice is so variable and the grades more changable than rock. It's best to err on the side of conservative when considering where to go until you have enough leading experience under your belt and can lead a WI5 with confidence and stealth. Hope this helps some. Jack

So true.  I began ice climbing in the Canadian Rockies when I was 18 years old.  Unlike rock, ice grades can vary significantly depending on temps and the traffic they see.  When it is minus 40 degrees Celsius in the Canadian Rockies, a remote and sustained WI4 route can serve you up a big piece of humble pie.  The ice up here gets extremely brittle in January and February and we have literally hundreds of remote world-class ice routes in the Canmore, Alberta area alone. I have never climbed in Colorado or Utah so I can't really comment on these areas.  I just know for a fact that temperature and traffic play a big role in how hard a route will be at a given time.  

Surely the ice has melted after 12.5 years...

Joe Prescottwrote:

Surely the ice has melted after 12.5 years...

Interesting (and sad) to see posts from Marc Andre LeClerc from so many years ago.  

Kai Larsonwrote:

Interesting (and sad) to see posts from Marc Andre LeClerc from so many years ago.  

I feel the same about seeing Jack Roberts posts. 

Kai Larsonwrote:

Interesting (and sad) to see posts from Marc Andre LeClerc from so many years ago.  

Yes. Coincidentally, I watched The Alpinist over the holidays with my daughters. The 13yo asked to watch it again this Sunday evening. She's not that into climbing, but is wondering about the risks, since I solo easy ice routes over the holidays every year since before they were conceived. Tough conversations.

The melting ice is actually uncovering bodies, as are the decreasing water levels...

Marc-Andrewrote: Im canadian, from SW B.C. I know that in my West Coast Ice, the book covers some routes in Washington, and WCI will give the route a 3 and Washington ice gives it a 4. Also, some American climbers have accused me/us of sandbagging routes. This leads me to believe that perhaps routes are generally a little softer in the states? I have climbed a washington 'solid 4' and thought it was generic 3+. This does make sense as we have more ice for longer in Canada... and that Alpha Male pic looks like classic grade 4... but its hard to tell from pics.

This was surreal to find this comment. What a legend. So Unknown in 2010. I had the pleasure to meet him and Brette, briefly. I would have to agree with leclerc.

Best advice I ever got is, "climb the climb, not the grade"