potential new beginner sport crags on lemmon?

Eric Rhicard wrote: Although it is another topic for another thread the easy routes don't get set up because most of us putting up routes don't want to spend the $ on easy climbs. We are not Trustafarians. A single 50 foot sport route with anchors is $30. Jimbo and I will put these up if they are great. I love a great 5.6. The problem is that you have to do a lot of OK routes to get a great one. We do put up a fair number of 8,9,10 climbs. Then you throw in the time it takes away from climbing the routes you want to and you see why easy routes don't get done that often. Now get back to topic or start another thread!

as per your suggestion i am starting the thread. i have long thought about developing a "beginner" cliff low on the mountain. i have taken many new people out climbing--and by "new" i mean people who have climbed a few times in their lives or not at all--and i have noticed a significant lack of very easy climbs (as in 5.7 and below) on lemmon, particularly low on the mountain.

so, i am starting this thread to try to organize some sort of effort to develop such a cliff. for me there are 2 limitations that need to be overcome: 1. i do not own a drill; and 2. i do not know where such a cliff might exist.

the solution to #1 doesn't seem too hard as i know a few people who would probably be willing to let me borrow theirs, and i intend to eventually buy one anyway. the solution to #2 seems a bit more difficult.

so, in an effort to find a solution to problem #2, does anyone know of such a cliff relatively low on the mountain that might have the potential for 6 or more very easy routes? and of course, these routes don't have to be amazing, but ideally they wouldn't totally suck.

also, if anyone else is interested in joining such an effort to develop a beginner cliff, please respond.

#1 I own a drill.
#2 I know where the cliff is. Across the road from green slabs. Upper right end of Chessmen.

there is a cliff, a little higher on the mountain, right next to the druid wall. Bonus: there is already an anchor and an easy slab finish that other routes could lead into. I bolted a mixed 11ish climb on the side i thought was worth it, but there is a slab to the left that is very featured with jugs and small ledges. I did not look that difficult...there is potential for 4 or 5 routes plus a variation or two. Same approach as druid, here is the link for the .11 (which btw has only been done clean on tr solo so the fa is up for grabs) mountainproject.com/v/arizo…. In addition to the rupley route and the 5.8's on the druid there would be many beginnerish routes in the area. Also, there are a fair amount of places higher on the mountain that should not be forgotten...gumby has great jugs all over, and ridgeline has probably the best 5.5 route i've done in addition to several .7 routes. I would also say that the choss in hairpin has some of the easier 5.8 routes on the mountain and prison camp has many sport routes that are great to learn on.

Jon I'm totally with you, happy to see I'm not the only one! If I'm being ideal I would like to see it include the following:

1) A child friendly approach.
2) The ability to set up TR.
3) Some shorter climbs (35-45 feet).
4) Some tougher stuff for the more experienced people in the group.

I have a rotary hammer drill I can use and all the bolts we need so that solves that, we just need a location.

I'm game to go do some scouting with you so let me know when you're free and we'll have at it. I don't work so any day of the week suits me just fine. Like yourself I have gotten A LOT of new climbers out. I have 6 harnesses and 8 pairs of shoes just for this reason. This year alone I got at least a dozen adults to anchors that have never climbed before.

Boodge: I'm guessing you're child free, many climbers aren't but still wanna climb. Hiking three kids back to jailhouse to stick them on Cell Block 6 is of course an option and I've done it but while you (or I without kids) may not notice it if a kid comes off the rock they will grab the rope and pendulum on that route. You're just not factoring age, coordination, approach, physical build, fear of heights (something that took me two years to get over and I still fight) and so on into what you're saying. I got my mom to the top of practice wall, she loves to climb but my 55 year old overweight mom is never going to move on to 5.8s, she just isn't built for it. Also, the approaches may seem super easy to us but walk somebody that's 6 or 50 pounds over weight and older back to jailhouse and you will quickly see how lucky we are to be agile, young (well, me, not you:), in shape and built well.

Jon: Sign me up!

There are not nearly enough easy climbs on the mountain. No, I mean really easy. I climb with folks all the time who can climb all day on easy stuff but who'll only last an hour or two if the ratings jump straight up to 5.7/5.8.

These are not people who strive to become "climbers" but people who are out there only because they're spending time with a friend or family member.

I realize that for 99% of folks on this site, it seems like a waste of time and money to bolt 5.4-5.6 climbs, but it would really help those of us with friends and family who'll only climb with us if it's fun.

I'll be glad to contribute time, energy, and a bit of money. Just let me know what I can do.

Eric Rhicard wrote:#1 I own a drill. #2 I know where the cliff is. Across the road from green slabs. Upper right end of Chessmen.

is this cliff south facing? there are at least a couple of beginner cliffs that are good in the warmer months but to date there are no beginner winter crags. it seems like a south-facing wall at the chessmen might be a little chilly in the coldest months but still climbable october through april if dressed accordingly.

so basically if the cliff is south facing this sounds perfect.

i'm very glad to have received such positive feedback on this idea so quickly. as a general response, allow me to say the following:

i think brigette hit it right on the nose. there really is no cliff on lemmon where someone who has never climbed before can really "try it out" (except for maybe the gumby wall, which is closed until september and only stays reasonably warm enough to climb through october).

so let's be realistic about what a true beginner cliff really is. think back to the very FIRST time any of you climbed. how hard was it for you? i'll be perfectly honest and admit that my first time climbing, i could barely claw my way up a 5.6 after hanging 5+ times. and i was in fairly good physical condition already. if you take someone out who has NEVER climbed before, the chance that they'll be able to make it up a 5.7 is extremely low, and if they do it will probably take them at least 45 minutes of liquified forearms and frustration at falling every other move.

also, as people have mentioned children, what 7-year-old is going to be able to climb a 5.7 or a 5.8? adam has pointed out the cliff would ideally be child-friendly, and i like that idea.

last, i think it's important to remember that we're looking for a crag that's good in winter. there are a few cliffs with a reasonably high number of easy climbs high on the mountain (see ridgeline, munchkinland, gumby wall) but low on the mountain the only place i can think of that comes close to the same concentration of easy climbs is jailhouse.

so to sum up, the ideal beginner cliff would look like this:

1. a fairly easy approach (15-20 minutes tops but ideally more like 10)
2. lots of very easy climbs (as in 6 or more at 5.4-5.7)
3. kid-friendly. i think this means the area is fairly safe and offers the ability to set up topropes but those with children will have to elaborate. =)
4. a few slightly harder climbs (5.8-5.9)
5. climbable in winter

obviously the likelihood that we'll find a cliff that has all these things is fairly low, but we can compromise. we can also develop several cliffs if that is necessary and doable.

finally, scouting has been mentioned. i'll probably climb this saturday but on sunday i'd love to spend 1/2-3/4 of a day checking out some potential cliffs if anyone else is interested.

joshf wrote:there is a cliff, a little higher on the mountain, right next to the druid wall. Bonus: there is already an anchor and an easy slab finish that other routes could lead into. I bolted a mixed 11ish climb on the side i thought was worth it, but there is a slab to the left that is very featured with jugs and small ledges. I did not look that difficult...there is potential for 4 or 5 routes plus a variation or two. Same approach as druid, here is the link for the .11 (which btw has only been done clean on tr solo so the fa is up for grabs) mountainproject.com/v/arizo…. In addition to the rupley route and the 5.8's on the druid there would be many beginnerish routes in the area.

when it gets warm enough i'd definitely like to check this cliff out.

If you are looking for a wall for new climbers, there is no need to make it leadable. There is no need to bolt it. Top-rope anchors should be easy to set up on most cliffs with gear and trees, if the cliff is less than 100 feet.

Thus, #1 shouldn't matter, you probably don't need a drill.

Eric D wrote:If you are looking for a wall for new climbers, there is no need to make it leadable. There is no need to bolt it. Top-rope anchors should be easy to set up on most cliffs with gear and trees, if the cliff is less than 100 feet. Thus, #1 shouldn't matter, you probably don't need a drill.

you are right, lead bolts may or may not be necessary. the practice cliff at windy point is a good example. however i'm fairly certain that bolted anchors will be necessary. setting up topropes using trees and/or gear is an option but it's often difficult to 1. know which route you're doing, or if you're even doing a route and 2. get the rope to go where you want it to go. plus it can take a lot of time and you always run the risk of knocking stuff off the top of the cliff.

this is a good idea that could make developing the cliff much easier (and cheaper). and i agree with rickd; phsycial climbing movement is what new climbers should be concerned with. if setting up a toprope is easy then i see no reason put in lead bolts for 5.4-5.7 climbs.

Jon, I also wanted to add that the rock i mentioned earlier has easy and safe access to the top, so TRing routes would be easy.

joshf wrote:Jon, I also wanted to add that the rock i mentioned earlier has easy and safe access to the top, so TRing routes would be easy.

perfect, in that case it should be fairly easy to develop. i like easy.

As I've thought more about this I think there are some simple solutions as well. One that came to mind was Matterhorn where there is a small wall, slight top (enough to walk on and set a TR) with easy access and a much bigger face on the other side of that lip.

That spot isn't ideal but if we could find something like it that would be awesome! You would be able to get two routes with one set of anchors.

As for the kid aspect, I've had mine back to Jailhouse, Ridgeline, the Red Boulder and so on. An area like Hairpin is ideal any canyon is great because I don't have to worry so much about them falling off cliff while I'm trying to lead something. Jailhouse however is a canyon and I won't take my kids back there anymore.

So I would say a canyon or wall is a better option. A place where you don't have to pay so much attention or a kid can wander a little without a ton of hazards.

I understand we're going to have to compromise some but being aware we may be able to get what we want done adding some stuff to places like Matterhorn, Hairpin, 60 Second Approach, Ridgeline and so on.

I also agree some 5.4 and 5.5 stuff would be a GREAT addition!

Jon,

I would talk with someone who guides on Mt Lemmon for beta on easy to moderate climbing areas, such a person probably visits these areas on a regular basis with beginners.
I'll let you know if I can think of such a person.

JF

j fassett wrote:Jon, I would talk with someone who guides on Mt Lemmon for beta on easy to moderate climbing areas, such a person probably visits these areas on a regular basis with beginners. I'll let you know if I can think of such a person. JF

well i can think of one person who does this regularly but i thought the whole reason he did it was to get up as high as he could and see how far he could drive a golf ball.

PM sent.

Which is why easy terrain is a must! Climbing with a full bag of golf clubs is really difficult!

JF

I'm in to help as well.

I agree with the sentiment that the beginner cliff does not need to be lead bolted, but easily accessible top roping is a must. True beginners don't lead, and there are decent first leads scattered throughout the mountain. I spent most of the past spring climbing with a couple of relative newcomers, and rarely had trouble finding good moderate leads for them, once they got to the point they were ready to start leading.

Jon, here is what kid friendly means to me (as the father of a 4 and 2 year old, so those with older kids might have a different opinion) - easy, relatively flat approach (start of Druid or Jailhouse approaches are good examples, before both start dropping off). Flat, safe place for kids to play with minimal supervision (again, Jailhouse is IDEAL for this, Druid works pretty well). Easier climbs or boulders for kids to play around. My kids aren't quite old enough to rope up, but they want to do what everyone else is doing, and want to climb something. Obviously, no huge drop offs or sketchy belay areas (i.e. the Main Wall at milagrosa). No loose holds falling down from above. Is this ideal spot too much to ask for? Jailhouse is almost perfect, except for the few spots of tricky scrambling to get down to the sand box area. Hairpin is pretty ideal for bouldering, for those that like to boulder.

But if you find the area, I am definitely down to do what I can. Thanks for taking the initiative and getting the discussion going.

j fassett wrote:Which is why easy terrain is a must! Climbing with a full bag of golf clubs is really difficult! JF

hahahaha!!

Walls on the west side of the road from Green Slabs face south. Not the Bear Slabs (See SQ II page 56 and 57 worth checking out) which I have never been to but have seen folks top roping. The cliff I am talking about is just above the road and would only take 5 minutes to get to. Might not be too kid friendly unless you want your kid to grow up as a hood ornament. I also suggest you think smaller and shorter. The things we will not spend time on because they don't look like real routes. Beginners don't care about quality. They want to tie in and get off the ground and make it to the top if possible. You might think about setting the anchors back from the edge and just make sure beginners know how to use and equalize long 10 to 20 foot lengths of webbing. That way no one has to lead or lean over the edge to clip them. My god, people might have to learn how to tie water knots again. I think the golf pro teaches a course on water knots. Before you discount a cliff as possible, TR the thing. You would not believe how many routes turned out to be really fun to climb despite looking like crap.

To Adam,
Hey I have an 8 year old daughter who I have taken climbing a few times. She has run up the easier routes in Prison camp and Munchkinland. There are plenty of easier routes out there for kids and beginners to TR. Half the battle is working a route and figuring your way up it. Imo, people would benieft more and enhance their skills trying a failing a single route in which they find hard than everyone rushing out to put up alot of 5.6ish routes. There are many places out there where if all your looking for is a easy TR, you can setup a natural anchor, as opposed to spending money on hardware. Just my opinions.

Ryan

ryan dillon wrote:To Adam, Hey I have an 8 year old daughter who I have taken climbing a few times. She has run up the easier routes in Prison camp and Munchkinland. There are plenty of easier routes out there for kids and beginners to TR. Half the battle is working a route and figuring your way up it. Imo, people would benieft more and enhance their skills trying a failing a single route in which they find hard than everyone rushing out to put up alot of 5.6ish routes. There are many places out there where if all your looking for is a easy TR, you can setup a natural anchor, as opposed to spending money on hardware. Just my opinions. Ryan

Any response I have would be redundant. Not all people climb because they wanna climb better, by this logic we could just put up all 5.12s and tell everybody that can't climb them to get better and enhance their skills.

That's of course foolish, just as foolish as it is for a 5.12 climber to not grasp not all people can climb 5.12s or a 5.8 climber to not grasp not all people can climb 5.8s.

How many new people have you gone out climbing with, how many older over weight people, how about handicapped people? Just wondering because without that information it's hard for me to put much weight on what you're saying.