v-scale vs. climbing scale

I think JJNS is right on. While comparing bouldering to route grades is tough because they are so different, for me a v10 takes about as much effort as a 5.13b/c.

both fruit, just like you sucka. kiddin'.

i agree w/ mono about the whole total effort in the grade. that's the best thing about climbing, you always feel like you are deficient in power or endurance, or both. it takes a lot of time to try to even it all out, but you are always chasing something.

kiamarie wrote:how do boulder ratings and climbing ratings compare? i found one chart, but it compares a v4 to a 5.12, and v4s are fairly simple for me, but there's no way any amount of hangdogging could get me up a 5.12. can anyone clear up my confusion?

Buy or just take a look at Eric Horsts' 'Training for Climbing"

There are fairly accurate self assesment tables in there that might help you clear up reasons for failing on longer more commiting routes and sending equally if not more physically difficult boulder problems. There are lots of limiting factors you may not be aware of.

No wonder I don't boulder...everything starts at 5.10 in bouldering. Actually my ankles can't take the drops. OUCH!

For me the difference is clipping. V4 feels fairly easy for me and so does top ropping 12a. When I lead them though, figuring out when and how to clip is the tough part, usually taking multiple tries. I imagine it is must worse placing gear. (I am no where near climbing 12a on gear and will probablly never be)

jmac wrote:For me the difference is clipping. V4 feels fairly easy for me and so does top ropping 12a. When I lead them though, figuring out when and how to clip is the tough part, usually taking multiple tries.

Jmac, this really sounds to me like a psychological issue. I recommend that you practice finding relaxed clipping stances. You're probably getting fairly sketched out when it comes time to clip, and so you're rushing things, clipping from an inefficient position, out of balance, and overgripping. When you're toproping, every time you get to a bolt, focus on finding the most natural position to clip. You want to have your feet relatively wide, and whichever hand you're hanging from should be completely straight (ideally, those this is not always possible). A gym is a great place to practice this.

A common mistake people make is clipping too low. You're anxious to get the bolt clipped, so you try to clip it as soon as you possibly can. Often if you climb a bit higher you will find a much better stance and a casual clip.

If you find you have trouble fumbling clips, get a lenght of rope & a quickdraw and practice clipping while you're watching TV or whatever. Practice all four basic positions: right hand, left hand, gate facing towards you, gate facing away. Try to do 100 of each every night until you have it dialed. Once you've mastered that you can try advanced clips like clipping across your body, under the opposite arm, behind your head, etc.

I think all of this refers to the beauty of climbing. While you may feel like you've mastered one aspect, there is always another aspect where you can find a challenge.

I always shake my head when people who primarily boulder only get on Bottom Feeder at Waimea, and ignore all of the other stellar routes. Sure, it's one thing to play to your strength, but there is a whole vast world of climbing out there.

im going to play the "What does it matter" card...

im my opinion any climbing scale is meant to give you a rough idea of weather you have any business getting on a given route/problem... there for all this hyper specific grading seems kinda silly... depending on endurance,styles of climbing, short or tall, finger/hand size (for cracks), and a whole slew of other things im surprised we have a grade scale at all... we are clearly all having very different experiences as we climb the same routes, and that's ok...

ratings are just weird, however, still necessary in some ways. My biggest problem lately is that I have done most of my climbing at The Spot gym in boulder and can pretty much only think in terms of spots- obviously pretty worthless on real rock.... or anywhere else. For anyone who knows what I'm talking about; what do you think the conversion from the spot scale to v scale or yds is?

For anyone with and ipod touch or iphone there is a cool app that has a full comparison chart for all the ratings around the world!

Jake N. wrote:ratings are just weird, however, still necessary in some ways. My biggest problem lately is that I have done most of my climbing at The Spot gym in boulder and can pretty much only think in terms of spots- obviously pretty worthless on real rock.... or anywhere else. For anyone who knows what I'm talking about; what do you think the conversion from the spot scale to v scale or yds is?

While I agree with the "who cares about ratings" sentiment in an absolute sense, I'll try to give a ridiculously serious answer to your question. When you go to a place like the Spot or Movement and are hanging out between attempts, it's hard (at least for me) not to engage in some speculation as to how hard the ratings are compared to outside areas.

I found the Spot scale to be just as inconsistent as every other scale I've come across. Perhaps that can be explained by route setters having trouble grading problems that are way below their limit, I don't know. Some gyms allow users to vote on new routes' ratings before the ratings are determined--that seems like a good idea, and it would be much better if the users didn't see any suggested ratings or other users' votes before voting themselves. We can't avoid group think, even when we're sensitive to the issue.

Many of the inconsistencies would be very glaringly obvious to anyone who would watch the same group of climbers trying the same problems: e.g., everyone in the group easily flashes one 4 Spot, everyone gets totally shut down by another 4 Spot. The Spot never seemed to change routes' ratings, and they were often so inconsistent as to approach worthlessness. (Sorry to be critical: in general, I like Spot very much). The inconsistencies seemed worse to me a few months ago (when I was last there) compared to past trips.

Anyway, anyone who wants to convert Spot ratings to V Scale should NOT read the below before voting . . .

I think:
1 Spot = VB
2 Spot = V0, V0+, maybe 2 Spot + includes V1
3 Spot = V1 to V2, maybe 3 Spot + includes V3
4 Spot = V3 to V5, maybe 4 Spot + includes V6
5 Spot = V6 (maybe v7) on up.

Obviously the Spot scale is geared to the moderate boulder. Anything hard for a hotshot boulderer would be 5 Spots, although every now and then you might see a hotshot struggle with a particular 4 Spot + (if they struggled with a plain old 4 Spot, they're not a hotshot or it was misrated).

Daniel Trugman wrote:T. If you can't do a pull-up, you are limited to V4s of a very particular style (or soft ones).

That is definitely not true. I have known women who could not do a pull up, but could climb hard 12. Pull ups and climbing have very little in common.

Monomaniac wrote: Besides, this trhead is about justifying sandbags, not the other way around.

I always thought that was the definition of an "area classic" or maybe why the letter scale goes to "d". So you could sucker non-locals into getting on hard scary routes for everyones entertainment.

As for gym grades: I feel like that's a perfect place to practice the mentality of grades as a suggestion. As soon as you start grading routes that are created by a person you've got to figure in all sorts of other variables like, the setters climbing style, how they felt at the time, how much caffeine did they have that day...etc.

For a humerous explanation of Vgrades see attached

fishproducts.com/powerandru…

Note that according to these definitions I can't really admit to doing any boulder problems, ever. :(

Reprint:

DCCC Scale

When bouldering was first conceived as a sport unto itself by the late great John Gill, he developed the “B” grades, which ranged from B1 to B3.
A B1 was the easiest within the B grades, but it still represented a move more difficult than one would encounter on the hardest fifth-class, Yosemite Decimal System (YDS) scale.
A B3 would immediately be down-rated to B2 if it was ever repeated by anyone, even the first ascentionist.
Later, John Sherman established the Vermin, or “V” scale, an open ended scale that rates the difficulty of a boulder problem with greater definition i.e V0-V16 and beyond.
Verm’s rating system has been widely adopted and the antiquated B-scale has fallen out of use.
However, even the V-scale has its limitations. It does a good job of depicting the gymnastic difficulty of any single move or problem, but aside from providing a sense of difficulty, it falls short by leaving out other important factors that determine a problems character, such as quality, length, etc.
To fill this vacuous void, I propose the DCCC-scale. The DCCC scale is meant to supplement, not replace, the V-scale. Adding a DCCC rating suffix to a V-scale prefix will give a climber a more accurate representation of a particular boulder problem.
This new DCCC-scale is still in its infancy and the following suffixes are still pending DCCC review and sanction. The suffixes listed below are the first of what will hopefully be many at some point in the not too distant future.
Additional suggestions are welcome prior to submittal to the DCCC sanctioning review board.

HB - Highball. Death, serious disfigurement or soiled undergarments possible

LB - Lowball. One move wonder or low traverse. Something you wouldn’t tell others about or add to your tick list.

PILE - Loose decomposed rock Complete Choss. Applied to Castlewood problems to keep outsiders away.

0U812 - Contrived sequences not designed for human anatomical structure

BLAH - Interesting sequences, but totally lacking aesthetic qualities. i.e: roadcuts, buildings, climbing gyms or Morrison, CO

XMEN - Body type dependant. i.e: can’t be done unless you have an ape index of +12” or telescoping titanium prosthetic legs.

SB - Sandbag. Originally and intentionally down-rated by the first ascentionist, after spending weeks getting it wired, so they can tell others, “You think it’s V8? I thought it was only about V6, cuz I’m such a honemaster.”

SLOP - Sloping hell. No further description needed.

OUCH1 - Crimpfest. “I never really needed those tendons anyway.”

OUCH2 - Razor sharp holds. Must be done first try, as it will take weeks to heal before another attempt can be made.

DCCC - A line that was once within your abilty, but is now too difficult due to other commitments infringing on climbing time. Best avoided by over the hill has beens.

Suggested by Buff Johnson:

FIRE - The force at which your body must let one rip due to the strenuous nature inherent in the moves.

PFFT - A little less difficult and allows the user to hide the action.

5150 - a route that is more important to others than to you.

5051 - a route that you FA and must be important to all.

BINK - a route that requires your spotter to throw rocks at your noggin to get you moving along.

BONK - a route that requires energy bar ingestion for a proud send.

UTM - a route that no-one can figure out where/what the heck it is. Could be an unknown boulder or a known boulder with an unknown sequence.

I boulder and sport climb, I normally call bouldering "Crux Climbing" and that's sort of how I use it, the reason I started was to get a better idea of what I can do physically in a safer situation. It's given me a lot more confidence on routes but I also have a pretty intense fear of heights.

I am not the strongest climber (I can climb 10s or something with an 11 crux and I boulder V2) in the world so I like crimpy traverses and so on but in all honesty I don't push super hard. I'm happy getting outside and I don't chase numbers, I mostly use them so I know what I can safely lead, otherwise I see them as pretty useless.

I will say the main reason I like bouldering is the simplicity (lack of gear and a harness) and the ability to "unlock" problems in a way that you can't do as easy climbing.

Tom Hanson wrote:"...When bouldering was first conceived as a sport unto itself by the late great John Gill..."

Did I miss something? Last I heard he was still alive, and bouldering.

Does anyone remember the humorous version of the V-scale that Verm wrote up a long time ago?

v0 was something like "a problem that no matter how good it is, you'll never get on"

v3 was "a problem that you ruthlessly wire so that you can call it your warmup"

v13 was "a problem that Fred Nicole could flash, after you give him all the beta."

Anyone remember that?

Tom Hanson wrote:When bouldering was first conceived as a sport unto itself by the late great John Gill

Yeah, uhh, I think he's still around...

johngill.net/

He posted on supertopo two days ago.

Tom Hanson wrote:Reprint: DCCC Scale When bouldering was first conceived as a sport unto itself by the late great John Gill, he developed the “B” grades, which ranged from B1 to B3. A B1 was the easiest within the B grades, but it still represented a move more difficult than one would encounter on the hardest fifth-class, Yosemite Decimal System (YDS) scale. A B3 would immediately be down-rated to B2 if it was ever repeated by anyone, even the first ascentionist. Later, John Sherman established the Vermin, or “V” scale, an open ended scale that rates the difficulty of a boulder problem with greater definition i.e V0-V16 and beyond. Verm’s rating system has been widely adopted and the antiquated B-scale has fallen out of use. However, even the V-scale has its limitations. It does a good job of depicting the gymnastic difficulty of any single move or problem, but aside from providing a sense of difficulty, it falls short by leaving out other important factors that determine a problems character, such as quality, length, etc. To fill this vacuous void, I propose the DCCC-scale. The DCCC scale is meant to supplement, not replace, the V-scale. Adding a DCCC rating suffix to a V-scale prefix will give a climber a more accurate representation of a particular boulder problem. This new DCCC-scale is still in its infancy and the following suffixes are still pending DCCC review and sanction. The suffixes listed below are the first of what will hopefully be many at some point in the not too distant future. Additional suggestions are welcome prior to submittal to the DCCC sanctioning review board. HB - Highball. Death, serious disfigurement or soiled undergarments possible LB - Lowball. One move wonder or low traverse. Something you wouldn’t tell others about or add to your tick list. PILE - Loose decomposed rock Complete Choss. Applied to Castlewood problems to keep outsiders away. 0U812 - Contrived sequences not designed for human anatomical structure BLAH - Interesting sequences, but totally lacking aesthetic qualities. i.e: roadcuts, buildings, climbing gyms or Morrison, CO XMEN - Body type dependant. i.e: can’t be done unless you have an ape index of +12” or telescoping titanium prosthetic legs. SB - Sandbag. Originally and intentionally down-rated by the first ascentionist, after spending weeks getting it wired, so they can tell others, “You think it’s V8? I thought it was only about V6, cuz I’m such a honemaster.” SLOP - Sloping hell. No further description needed. OUCH1 - Crimpfest. “I never really needed those tendons anyway.” OUCH2 - Razor sharp holds. Must be done first try, as it will take weeks to heal before another attempt can be made. DCCC - A line that was once within your abilty, but is now too difficult due to other commitments infringing on climbing time. Best avoided by over the hill has beens. Suggested by Buff Johnson: FIRE - The force at which your body must let one rip due to the strenuous nature inherent in the moves. PFFT - A little less difficult and allows the user to hide the action. 5150 - a route that is more important to others than to you. 5051 - a route that you FA and must be important to all. BINK - a route that requires your spotter to throw rocks at your noggin to get you moving along. BONK - a route that requires energy bar ingestion for a proud send. UTM - a route that no-one can figure out where/what the heck it is. Could be an unknown boulder or a known boulder with an unknown sequence.

Hilarious!