Geezer Wall Bolt Removal

I have been climbing in SLC for 5 or 6 years. I started (like many before) climbing at crags in BCC (Dogwood, Slips, Upper and Lower S-curves etc). I then moved to the awesome (and sometimes terrifying) climbing areas of Little. When I first climbed Satan's Corner all I had was a rack of hexes, stoppers and a single friend (old school 1.5). When I wanted to lead the Green A I had to make an investment in micro stoppers and HB Brassie offsets. It was worth it. I used to work with Dave Smith at REI and I would always ask him about the olden days with people like George Lowe, Jock Glidden, Ted Wilson, etc. The stories of the climbing achievements of the past are fascinating. He once told me that George Lowe wasn't wearing hiking boots on the FA of The Dorsal Fin, but was wearing the best climbing shoes available that happened to have lugged soles. I know for a fact that Ray Dahl and Paul Hodges climbed most of the Slips w/o bolts, and then retroactivly plugged them in when they realized the convenience of the crag for beginners. Dave Smith seemed indifferent when I told him that a bolt was added to Cranial Prophylactic. I clipped it when I first climbed it, I have placed a nut on later ascents. I am personally trying to get back to the old school way of doing things. I love seeing Brian Smoot's old pictures of Wasatch Climbing "back in the day" ( I just bought Wasatch Granite, Wasatch Quartzite, Wasatch Rock Climbs, and I am furiously looking for Desperate Grace). That large ramble being said, I think that if the Geezer Wall was approached by the Wasatch legends of yesteryear I don't believe that it would be bolted the way it was. Sometimes a bolt or fixed pin can make a climb go from a pucker fest to a really fun route (Astro Lad in Moab, Perhaps?, Touch Up). People need to realize, however, that a bolt isn't necessary everywhere. Stealing equipment is never cool. Remember: as Wasatch rock climbers we are all standing on the shoulders of giants.

clackmon wrote: before rap bolting became the norm, bolts were placed on the lead from stances...and in some cases from hooks. the leader would typically climb as far up as was reasonable (and in some cases not so reasonable) before placing the first bolt. then it was on up to the next stance (using the term loosely in many instances). as you might imagine, it was balls-to-the-wall high risk necky runouts just to get to a place where you MIGHT drill a bolt by hand. this style was more or less the opposite of what most here are advocating: that climbing should be fun and ultra-safe, even eschewing natural gear because bolts are more convenient (and 'safer'). there are a lot of these bold routes scattered throughout the land, places like the valley, tuolomne, granite mt, jtree, south platte, etc. they are testimony to the courage and vision and STYLE of the first ascent parties and this gets to the heart of this controversy. back when bolting of blank protection-less rock began, bolts were placed as a LAST RESORT. you used as few as possible and either got in gear when you could or ran it out. can you imagine the difference between heading up a blank section hoping for an eventual place to hand-drill a bolt...and rapping down with a power drill slamming bolts anywhere you wish, even next to perfectly protectable cracks? this is the ultimate insult to the rock, the boldness of our predecessors and to future generations. it is lazy, selfish, cowardly and disingenuous. we have climbing gyms for ultra-safe 'fun' beginner climbs. there are millions of places to toprope if you don't have a rack. i dare say there are plenty of sport crags that were developed with reasonable style ie. not grid-bolted and with no bolted cracks. there is no need for places like geezer and even though the neophytes/aging has-beens might prefer a bolt every 3 feet, this is a completely unsustainable direction for route development to be heading.

Clackmon,

You take a slice of climbing history as your ethic. Why not go back before bolts. Or go farther ahead and realize that bolts were placed on lead because of necessity, lack of imagination/realization, or convention of the time. If your predecessors were hard men you imagined them to be, they would just go for broke and not put a bolt in at all. Bolts were few and far between because it required 2 hands and a stance to drill by hand.

Back before bolts existed people pounded pins and tied in directly. Back before carabiners people tied straight through the rings on pins. Before sticky rubber climbers used some pretty awful climbing shoes. Should we talk about hemp (don't get excited, I am talking about ropes)? Do you want to choose something from that list because Bonatti did it and we all know he was bad to the bone? I could make a similar list of climbing tactics - discreet tension, hang dogging, toprope rehearsing, etc that were considered acceptable/sacrilege at one point or another.

The point is, times change, but you have chosen to romanticize a particular period of climbing history that appeals to you and expect everyone to buy in as 'the way'. I am guessing you haven't given up other things that have come along since those hardmen put up their lines, like leg loops or sticky rubber because those aren't taboo in your selective criteria.

So should everyone only place bolts on lead, ground up with handrills like the old hardmen - cause those battery powered drills are cheating. Hanging from hooks and drilling is OK - that isn't too far off from slamming in an anchor and thoughtfully drilling where it makes sense - you have blown the FFA and are on aid, so what is the difference - oh yeah, hanging from a hook is risky till you get that bolt in? Is it so wrong to have a fun safe climb? What are your criteria, so we know what to do (keep the list short for the has beens who can't remember so good)?

"Neophytes and has beens". I am happy to say you were one once and you will inevitably be the other before you know it (if you aren't already).

I don't advocate bolting cracks, but there are many climbs in BCC that could be protected by gear(S curves anyone)that have bolts. It comes back to the FA's choice of style and armchair quarterbacking is easy after the fact is so much easier than getting the FA yourself.

Back to my earlier points many pages ago:
#1. It sucks to be second - nut up, get there first, fire routes in your style, and post up - otherwise:

#2. Discuss it with the FAs if you don't like the style, but respect them for having the vision and motivation to get out put up FAs rather than complaining after the fact (Geezer wall was not counter to the local ethics BTW).

PT

PT,
We speak the same dialect...you forgot to mention that perhaps ALL of the new bolts EVERYWHERE should be chopped and replaced with hand drilled 1" x 1/4" Rawldrives...only then will we all return to the good old days. Yea, right on Schmerz Zug.

Think about it like this. If people really started to place 1/4 inchers by hand it would screw me BIGTIME. I would have to upgrade them to SS 3/8".

Sounds like a cheaper way to put up a F.A.

Michael J B wrote:I am furiously looking for Desperate Grace.

Yikes!!

amazon.com/gp/offer-listing…;condition=collectible

To me it was rediculas to ever bolt that place,,,,,Learn to climb...I've been climbing since 78, yep Im that old and we never had any 12 bolted 5-5's to learn on....All I see these day is people clipping bolts and lowering off good anchors that you can rapple off...
Save your rope save the anchors and learn to climb and rapple.

STH wrote: I suspect if someone put fixed gear anywhere on Schoolroom it would get yanked the next day.

Hmmm...

Top of Schoolroom yesterday...some things change...

...and some things stay the same...

I guess this an attempt to replace the tree as a rappel anchor? We walk over to the chimney and down climb to the standard rappel anchor.

Which looks like this now:

Guess I've never liked the rusty chains but they did at least extend from the bolts a bit more.

Cheers.

• sigh*

come on guys, its all in the name of 'community service'

Brian in SLC wrote: Hmmm... Top of Schoolroom yesterday...some things change... ...and some things stay the same... I guess this an attempt to replace the tree as a rappel anchor? We walk over to the chimney and down climb to the standard rappel anchor. Which looks like this now: Guess I've never liked the rusty chains but they did at least extend from the bolts a bit more. Cheers.

Staunch old school traditionalist strikes again... and again!