Bolt Anchors on 4th class?

Jay Knower wrote: I understand your precedent argument, but the slippery slope that you mention isn't likely to happen. I don't see how a discreet rap anchor would lead to guardrails on the 14ers. I am usually very comfortable downclimbing 4th class; however, I can imagine a situation in which downclimbing wet 4th class would be terrifying for me. Drawing on my climbing experience, I might add slings to the boulder to make my descent safe. Now, if this situation is repeated over and over, you would eventually get to a point where the rap station looks like those photos. Two camouflaged bolts would make it unlikely that the slings would appear. It seems an issue of aesthetics more than anything else.

Perhaps, but 15 yrs. ago they probably wouldn't have thought that people would be advocating placing permanent anchors and chains to avoid downclimbing 15 ft. of 4th class.

On a more practical level, given all the crap left up there--ropes, wads of slings, etc.--it's hared to imagine how those same litterbugs wouldn't be tempted to leave an equal amount of crap, but just anchored to the bolts rather than some slung horn.

Scott McMahon wrote: ...if prehistoric man was able to utilize these tools..would he have used bolts or would he held true to stoneman ethics?? Perhaps one day history will reveal these mysteries!! :0)

My bet is he would be a tradtional chipper who would call upon his pre-historic Beast Gods to protect him , bring him food, and child-bearing women, or accept him as a human (um, is it okay to call them human?) sacrifice to keep all the evil sporto infidels away from his tribe, uh, mostly away from his women, and other meaty posessions, and weapons.

When I went up there a number of years ago in very early season there was no tat, though i did see a bunch of old fixed pins. I downclimbed without a rope, but it was frightening on wet and icy rock. Its considerably more than 15', and the landing is nasty if you fall.

Impromptu anchors are always going to show up there - it is difficult for 4th class, and the majority of folks going up there are peak baggers and not rock climbers. Fixed lines in that spot are madness though. I shudder to think about how much loose rock is knocked onto that rope just over the course of a week. I'd rather jog through a shooting range than be under a party of hikers who aren't skilled/aware enough to avoid knocking down rocks.

Scott McMahon wrote: ...if prehistoric man was able to utilize these tools..would he have used bolts or would he held true to stoneman ethics??

He would have scoffed at "protection" and overpowered reluctant crack climbing partners, applying vigorous tension to the hair if necessary.

Here is the thing, bolting has been getting really out of control here on the Front Range. Why, just the other day I woke up, went out to the hallway and saw this:

I mean, that seems reasonable, the descent there can be 4th class (low 5th class when you include cats, toys and other debris). But then I went out on the porch to get the milk...

Whoah. That's just a short section of class 3, no reason to bolt that, is there? I think we can agree that those bolts should be choppe...

Hey now, there isn't any need for that. WTF would you ever use those for anyway? Come on now...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Dude! Think of what you save not needing a harness.

Shawn Mitchell wrote: He would have scoffed at "protection" and overpowered reluctant crack climbing partners, applying vigorous tension to the hair if necessary.

Male testosterone wins!

Mark Cushman wrote:NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

:)

Daniel Trugman wrote:I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, as no one is actually proposing bolted anchors. The guy who is going up there to clean up the mess of tangled ropes in the Hourglass specifically said that he is not going to add bolted anchors. I think those fixed ropes are a nuisance and inconsistent with 'leave no trace' ethics and am thus glad to see them go. Merlin, read the forums more carefully before you go off on a rant about nothing.

From the thread, the post that overly irritated (aka butt hurt) me. I never said it was the OP.

Considering the amount of traffic on the route, bolts/chains are the only thing I would trust up there. If wear and tear become an issue, it's the responsibility of the climber whether or not to use them. Make them 12mm and they'll be bomber in that granite. Don't forget your hammerdrill! They'll last for years before they would need to be replaced. Petzl's 12mm anchors will hold 25_kN (5260_lbf) downward force if installed right. Rappelling forces are pretty low compared to dynamic falls. Worst case, if you get a 300lb guy bouncing on the rope, you're probably looking at about a factor of safety in the neighborhood of about 10.

If you're not comfortable, maybe somebody from the ASCA could be talked into setting up a belay.
safeclimbing.org/index.htm

Edit - oh, I get it, I should have put bolt anchoring not bolting, used the wrong phrase in my title/post. Fixed it.

J. Albers wrote:First off, talking down to hikers and stating that they have less perspective on the wilderness is lame. I would more or less agree with what Jay is communicating, but I do have some concerns. First. The anchor itself (tat or bolts). There has clearly been an anchor there for a long time and it is not due to folks having epics. Check the Roach 14'er book....he mentions that there is usually some tat in the gully. Thus having an anchor up there is nothing new and it is no more sanitized now than it was 10 years ago. Thus, the real question is whether upgrading the already placed anchor with bolts is acceptable. On the one hand, I would wholeheartedly agree that replacing tat with a real anchor leaves a lot less litter, is less wasteful, and visually, looks a whole lot better than a huge wad of tat. That said, there are often tat rap stations on a lot of routes up in RMNP (often on Sykes Sickle for e.g.) and I would be hugely opposed to adding bolted rap stations instead of the tat. To be honest, I am not sure why exactly I feel this way. Perhaps because putting bolted belay stations on Spearhead would facilitate a lot less commitment. One thing that I find a bit weird is that Merlin didn't get all upset about the fixed ropes that are up there, which I would argue is WAY worse than a couple of bolts (I don't think the community should tolerate the fixed lines, that IS bullshit). On this route, whether there are bolts or a wad of tat doesn't seem to alter the route or the commitment much (you still have to 4 class your way up the gully to gain the tat) and for me personally, I wouldn't get all butt hurt over replacing tat with bolts.

I'm anti tat and ropes and I've already said I'm more oh a hiker than not these days. You have no clue what the mass perspective of the 14er peakbagger crowd is like here and you would not want them involved in making calls about bolting stuff. You just wouldn't. They'd via feratta the heck out of everything you climb if they could. Not all of them but enough.

Merlin:

You are about on my last nerve. Climbers are not superior to people who hike in any way. To call them Peakbaggers is funny to me, when all I heard when I was around my climbing buddies, was a bunch of spew about what routes they did last week and what's on their hitlist. You can talk all you want about chopping bolts, but in the end you are probably too lazy to go back there with a crowbar. Unless thats part of your normal climbing gear.

Jim Gloeckler wrote:Merlin: You are about on my last nerve. Climbers are not superior to people who hike in any way. To call them Peakbaggers is funny to me ....

Read the thread for context. You will not find me saying climbers are superior.

Merlin, the only argument that you have given against a bolted anchor is essentially, 'I have done it without a rope, so everyone should.'

No, you doing something without a rope doesn't mean that everyone should. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Why does the thought of someone using a rope on 4th class irk you so much?

Fourth Class actually means scrambling which is difficult/exposed enough that a rope is often used.

That short section of 4th class is getting you all worked up, and it isn't worth it. People are often going to use ropes to get up and/or down that thing. That's why it's 4th class. Get over it.

Now back to the discussion of a bolted anchor, given that people often use ropes on 4th class, by definition.

In the discussion, one or two people suggested that a bolted anchor would help cut down on all of the tat up there. This is a reasonable suggestion. Personally, I tend to be against adding bolts, and if I had any interest in this area, that's probably the side I throw my hat. But I still think the suggestion is reasonable, and I must agree that adding a bolt or two will probably eliminate the perpetual tat.

Merlin, please come up with a reasonable counterpoint, that has nothing to do with whether or not other people should climb ropeless on 4th class. There are several good reasons to not add a bolted anchor that I can think of. Good Luck.

I have been silent on this web page for quite some time, but feel like I need to comment. What is the big deal about putting in 2 bolts if you can find some solid rock. You don't have to use them, or the fixed ropes if you disagree. Many people can climb/hike 4th class, but can't get back down. Lets start leading by example, if you can down climb that section do it. You just might inspire the next generation to aspire to your skill level. Why don't we as climbers take the high road and make sure the bolts get put in right, rather than leave it to some gov. agency to put cables and ladders in.

Bobby Hanson wrote:Merlin, the only argument that you have given against a bolted anchor is essentially, 'I have done it without a rope, so everyone should.' No, you doing something without a rope doesn't mean that everyone should. Sorry to burst your bubble. Why does the thought of someone using a rope on 4th class irk you so much? Fourth Class actually means scrambling which is difficult/exposed enough that a rope is often used. That short section of 4th class is getting you all worked up, and it isn't worth it. People are often going to use ropes to get up and/or down that thing. That's why it's 4th class. Get over it. Now back to the discussion of a bolted anchor, given that people often use ropes on 4th class, by definition. In the discussion, one or two people suggested that a bolted anchor would help cut down on all of the tat up there. This is a reasonable suggestion. Personally, I tend to be against adding bolts, and if I had any interest in this area, that's probably the side I throw my hat. But I still think the suggestion is reasonable, and I must agree that adding a bolt or two will probably eliminate the perpetual tat. Merlin, please come up with a reasonable counterpoint, that has nothing to do with whether or not other people should climb ropeless on 4th class. There are several good reasons to not add a bolted anchor that I can think of. Good Luck.

People don't read what's written. They take it out of context and get all bent out of shape. I clearly appear to be guilty of that so once again, sorry. My fault for letting a very bad day get to me.

At this point, people got to rant, they got to rave (me included). Right now I've got to bow out and get back to dealing with some rather unpleasant reality. At the very least I've provided people with a bit of a distraction and a given you guys a bullseye.

I am staying out of this one, but just wanted to say I really like Mark's photos.

From 14ers.com, CO Native: "I had thought about placing double bolts with a chain and ring, but with the massive amount of use they would receive that should be left to someone who has years of experience placing them. I'm pretty sure I could do it right, but not sure enough for this route."

I was there last Sunday and checked out the anchor. I thought about cleaning it up myself but didn't. We started climbing beside the ropes but since it had snowed a bit for two days there was enough melt water running to wet everything down and was as deep as an inch or two in the trough. About 2/3 of the way up I just grabbed the red rope and Batmanned up most of the rest of the way to the anchor. I moved over to two of the brown ropes when I saw that the red one had been cut to the core - in two places the sheath had been pulled down. That one is insane trash and needs to be removed. The other ropes were in good shape. The anchor seemed solid to me. It just needs to have some of the tattered webbing removed. The webbing is backed up (difficult to see in the pic) by two big new lockers clipped to another static that runs up maybe 20 Ft to a fixed pin. It does not need bolts. A bolted anchor would accumulate just as much tat. I think the reason for multiple ropes is the upper part of the Hourglass is so loose they regularly get cut by rock fall. I don't think anyone uses the ropes to rap as there are knots tied at random on the fixed lines. I didn't see anyone wearing a harness either. Maybe the guy who's going to clean would rap down? The best way to use the fixed ropes is one in each hand which is what I did on the way down

On our descent, two guys going up passed us and later knocked down a boulder about 16 inches in diameter and several other smaller ones just as I was going down the narrowest part of The Hourglass holding two ropes. I swung over a few feet and took cover under a small overhang on the left side still holding on to the fixed ropes. The rocks ricocheted off the right side and hit all around me and one of them, guessing the size of a small cantaloupe, beaned me right on the top of my helmet! We scurried out of harm's way as fast as we could using the ropes. Those guys were idiots!! As we walked away, we could hear them yelling 'Rock!' over and over again like no one else. At least they knew enough to yell. I have a bruised scalp from the top strap on my helmet. That place is a dirty choss pile. So I can see why the ropes are there, as lame as it is. On a busy day you don't want to spend any more time in that thing than you have to.

(Sarcasm)--> Maybe a cable car can be installed to bypass the dangerous section allowing more people to bag all 14ers as long as they hike the minimum 3000 vertical feet required, yay! Or maybe if the ropes weren't there it would deter the idiots. Who knows.

2 points:

Before I got into climbing, I was climbing most of the 14ers, backpacking in and climbing a couple each weekend. Now as I have moved into alpine climbing I certainly feel more intimate and comfortable with the mountains. I used to hike during the day with boots to protect my fragile feet and sleep in a tent. Now when I climb in the mountains I'm comfortable hiking to unknown mountain places in the dark, gently placing my tennis shoes on trail and rock. I sleep under the stars or under a rock. As alpinists we usually hike farther into the mountains and camp in a less impacting manner just to approach the climb. Then we descend ways that many hikers would be uncomfortable uphiking. It seems fair to say that alpinists are more at home in the mountains.

Second, hikers and climbers alike love to have gear. How many times have you had a friend place that #5 just because he had it. Same with other outdoor activities. As a peak scrambler you get a rope and you want to use it. I don't think many people are talking about stopping, putting on a harness, and rapping. I would think they are just fixing ropes for themselves and they can afford to leave them behind apparently. I don't think bolt anchors would eliminate tat or fixed ropes, people have more gear than knowledge these days and they want to try it out.

Merlin wrote: I'm anti tat and ropes and I've already said I'm more oh a hiker than not these days. You have no clue what the mass perspective of the 14er peakbagger crowd is like here and you would not want them involved in making calls about bolting stuff. You just wouldn't. They'd via feratta the heck out of everything you climb if they could. Not all of them but enough.

Merlin, I have lived in both Colorado and New Mexico, so I do actually have "an idea" of what colorado peak bagger folk are like, and I am pretty sure that it is a stretch to say that 14'er folks would be putting bolts all over everything. Let me be clear though, Merlin, I do understand where your concern on this topic comes from and I think the discussion you started is a good and valid one.....just be careful about the forum topic title next time, eh?

I guess it would be the height of hypocrisy for me to argue against a bolted rap anchor on Little Bear and then use the rap route on the Diamond, so I can't argue against having a rap station. That said, what is the deal with the fixed rope? As far as I can tell, that is not reasonable and I think that is the first and most obvious complaint that should be addressed. Since when did it become ok to leave fixed rope on a 14'er (or any other mountain in the rockies?) I would think this is a point that the community could come to a consensus on and perhaps try and communicate to folks that leaving fixed rope is not ok.