Denver Area Drytooling

Phoenix wrote:On another note, have faith my fellow tool handlers, salvation is on the way. Myself and a select few are out there putting up DT lines, sport and trad. And they WILL be posted on the proj as they come, sooner rather than later. -Z

If you have any up already, you need to post them so the rest of us DTers can help out (and test out the routes;) The more people developing the area, the better.

Im just curious, why is there a need to bolt if people want to dry-tool? most places in CO are conducive to setting up a top-rope. Maybe the Denver dry-toolers should do some research along Duncan's ridge or Rotary Park in Ft Collins. There are several spots that you can set up a top rope on and they are not rock climbing routes. Bolting (in just my opinion) seems wrong whether for rock climbing or dry tooling.

PS. You can dry tool on the engineering building walls at CU-Boulder. At CSU you can get arrested for it.

The answer is right in front of your face...DT on the rock under and next to winter ice areas. All the rock in CCC, BC and at Moffat tunnel is already scratched to shit, and they are not actual waterfalls in warmer months, just seeps, if that. Otherwise, may I suggest the southernmost areas on Elephant Buttresses in BC, stay away from all the established rock routes, but there are big swaths where no one ever climbs on them in the summer, I personally wouldn't have a problem with some scratches in already light colored granite in places completely passed over by rock climbers.

O.K., lets not let this get into a bitch fest people! I found an area that is very close to Denver, CCC, with no established routes. At least 2 pitches, nice rock, but its dirty, mossy, bushy right now, on the south side of the creek. I checked the wall out myself, no bolts. I checked Mabe's book...no crag. I checked MP.com...not in the data base. Anyone interested pm me.

This brings up an area in my mind that is more relevant to the Colo Spgs area but also to some of the southern Denver guys. I've looked around the Williams Canyon area and it seems to have quite a bit of undeveloped "choss" limestone with numerous hanging caves that I've considered exploring for dry tool potential. Now before anyone flames me I'm well aware of the established routes by local climbers and would stay well away from those as well as the clearly trad lines that randomly exist throughout the canyon. This is a rarely visited area even considering the development (from what I can tell) and yes I'm aware of access issues but it could have some potential for scratching on rock. Before anyone throws flaming bottles of everclear at me just say no I've got projects in those areas and I'll shut up but if not it seems a fair place, out of the way, for people to play with tools.

Flame on gents, flame on.
Where did I say that I was going to go dry tool any rock climbing line? WHERE! Some folks just can not take criticism. I could rant and rave about how some are too fast to flex thair internet muscles to read into my statement, and where would that get us? Nowhere. Folks need to chill TF out. I was not going on any attack (as some did) against anyone, just voicing an opinion. If you can not handle that in an adult manner, then it's time to go back to grade school.

Hank, I was asking rhetorical questions, and then bringing about an answer, to form what we call a point. Ever take 9th grade writing? I was merely offering a different perspective, playing the devil's advocate if you will. Now what is so wrong with that? It was not meant to be funny or even offensive. Yet I somehow catch shit for it? WTF ever. I will have you know that I have the utmost respect for developers, as well as ethics. I often solicit the advice and opinions of local hard men, established, and respected figures. Don't mistake me for some gumby who cares about nothing more than me. I am working to do my part to progress the evolutions of climbing, albeit a different facet of our sport. I simply want to contribute to a sport that I love. Ever do that Hank? Thanks for the show of respect big H., I had more for you prior to this.

Shane, I'm sorry, but where do you have your I know everything P.H.D. posted? I didn't see it on your M.P profile. Do not think for a moment that I do not know what I am talking about when I rant. The point of my rant, was to offer a side that some narrow people might not think to ask. Secondly, where and how did I attack you? If anything I was complimenting your fantastic idea of using tunnels as DT areas. I had thought of that, but assumed there would be serious access issues and quickly dismissed it. But, well, I suppose you wanted a reason to flame me, so here you go, kiss my white ass putita.

Mike, They will be posted as they are put up my friend. Mostly, the setters are projecting (under a general time constriction) the routes. Once the FFA's go, or our time and chance is passed, they (routes) will be posted. As well, I will try and remember to post a thread to let you all know the details.

Evan, you're on the right track my brother. Keep on it!

Josh and Skeeter, I am very interested. P.M. me, we can collaborate on some ideas.

I never wanted to toss insults, or be offensive. But if you think I will lay down when you flame me, you've got another thing coming.

Phoenix wrote:Did you take 9th grade english?!..Thanks for the show of respect big H., I had more for you prior to this.....Shane, I'm sorry, but where do you have your I know everything P.H.D. posted? I didn't see it on your M.P profile.....so here you go, kiss my white ass putita....I never wanted to toss insults, or be offensive. But if you think I will lay down when you flame me, you've got another thing coming.

LMAO-Wow??- I think you need to get laid or see the Doc for oversensativity issues? Btw- Did YOU take 9th grade english...lol

I think it is you who cant take criticism- and the way your response was written(the one Hank responded too), did not portray PEACE and LOVE. Also, thanks for checking my profile, glad you care, but shouldnt you be on MATCH.com for that?? :) Seriously- I hardly said I know it all.... but more than mere scratches does an ice axe make. But see- you, Hank and I- we are just expressing opinions, the point here...so...CHILL DUDE! lol I guess my "good luck"- in BOTH POSTS, just wasnt nice enough,...??? WTF

Bottom line- to each their own. Just be smart and use common sense, like we all should. Thanks. (**not an attack- nor were you earlier**)(**no DToolers were hurt in the writing of this post- see Doc# 8675 309**)

Glad you and your white ass putita(wtf?) didnt lay down to the flame's....LMFAO....we would have missed the entertainment!! Thanks- :)

Again- GOOD. LUCK. TO. YOU.- lol L8R dude!

Evan Simons wrote:Otherwise, may I suggest the southernmost areas on Elephant Buttresses in BC, stay away from all the established rock routes, but there are big swaths where no one ever climbs on them in the summer, I personally wouldn't have a problem with some scratches in already light colored granite in places completely passed over by rock climbers.

The Dome and Elephant Buttresses in Boulder Canyon are on City of Boulder Open Space and Mountain Parks land. OSMP does not allow bolting without a permit on land that they manage.

I think that Skeeter's right, we shouldn't turn this into some kind of bitch fest where we all condemn each other's ideas and opinion's. My original intention in starting this post was to see if we could come to some kind of middle ground, where we as Dry Toolers could have a space to practice our craft. I think (minus a few negative posts) we've been working towards that middle.

Skeeter, JohnL and I have been talking with each other and have come up with a few ideas and places where we are looking at bolting up some climbs. We're not talking about destroying anyone's else's climbs. As I said earlier I respect the FA climbers and their rights to have a climb kept in original shape. However, I don't think that means that we have to be confined to the lowest, most hidden, last of the line choss pile that nobody else will ever want. If we find an area, and it hasn't been developed. Then we would be the FA climbers developing it our style, regardless of what that style may be and regardless what others may think the climbing potential of that area may be. What I'm saying is that we should not be limited because others feel that a certain area (an area they may not know exists)has "Potential"

This post bothers me on many levels. First and foremost, what happened to clean climbing? You know, that concept that we have been working towards for the last 30 years....minimizing impact to the resource? Drytooling in it's current form is NOT sustainable. You damage the rock and the cliff bases using tools created for an icy medium. It really doesn't matter if you are tooling on scruffy cliff bands or El Cap, the damage is the same. Remember that land managers are looking at us and our actions to determine their policy regarding climbing. Do you really want to threaten access for all climbers so that a few can get their tooling fix?

Phoenix, the reason that drytoolers are looked at as red-headed stepchildren is because they damage the rock we love to climb on. Just as aid climbers who choose to pound pitons on clean aid lines get crap. Do you think that any aid climber should be able to pound a pin into any crack just because he can? Why should it be OK to scratch the rock and rip off holds but not pound pitons? You do realize that drytooling is just another form of aid climbing don't you?

For all you dry toolers, I am just curious what helps you justify the damage you do to the rock? How does this differ from tagging or carving trees with your initials? Do you honestly think that those gouge marks are going to disappear before the year 2100?

If you guys are serious and want to be able to climb on rock routes, then maybe it is time to modify your tools. You know, wood, composite plastic, whatever it takes so you can climb without: A) scratching the crap out of the rock, and b) breaking off holds.
Just as the martial artist does not practice with a sharp katana, there is no reason that dry toolers need to use their steel when there is no ice present. I am guessing that if tools were available that did not mar or destroy the rock that this would be much less of an issue than it is today.

Phoenix wrote:Flame on gents, flame on. Where did I say that I was going to go dry tool any rock climbing line? WHERE! Some folks just can not take criticism. I could rant and rave about how some are too fast to flex thair internet muscles to read into my statement, and where would that get us? Nowhere. Folks need to chill TF out. I was not going on any attack (as some did) against anyone, just voicing an opinion. If you can not handle that in an adult manner, then it's time to go back to grade school. Hank, I was asking rhetorical questions, and then bringing about an answer, to form what we call a point. Ever take 9th grade writing? I was merely offering a different perspective, playing the devil's advocate if you will. Now what is so wrong with that? It was not meant to be funny or even offensive. Yet I somehow catch shit for it? WTF ever. I will have you know that I have the utmost respect for developers, as well as ethics. I often solicit the advice and opinions of local hard men, established, and respected figures. Don't mistake me for some gumby who cares about nothing more than me. I am working to do my part to progress the evolutions of climbing, albeit a different facet of our sport. I simply want to contribute to a sport that I love. Ever do that Hank? Thanks for the show of respect big H., I had more for you prior to this.

Sorry I didn't get your rhetorical question, oh wait, that was the point of my whole answer. You could grow some thicker skin as well.

To quote Jerry Maguire, "You say we're arguing, I say we're just starting to talk"!

And yes, I've gotten more Boy and Girl Scouts their Climbing Merit Badges than anyone, I've done more chalk clean ups in Eldo than most, I bring out trash EVERYTIME I go climbing, etc etc etc. I won't even get into all the Moab work I've done in the sport of BASE jumping. So yeah, I contribute to sports I love. Sorry to lose all that respect man.

most of the drytooling that I've been associated with has been in and around Vail and ouray. while in the amphitheatre or up in the belfry I've never run into a climber wanting to even attempt to climb without tools. literally it is so dirty and chossy that I can't imagine one wanting to make that there destination to climb other than to drytool. regardless if it is aid or not it is fucking fun..but along with that goes the screaming barfies.
the argument that one type of climbing is bad and one is not is kind of irrelevant, the little bouldering I have done I have walked up and seen boulders laying pads on bushes. this is just an example not to inflame other climbers. is what it is. we all as climbers take something from the rock regardless if were are mixed climbing or trad climbing, or sport climbing.
Jason again keep it on the dl. once ski traffic dies down lets head up to Vail.

Ali Jaffri wrote:Im just curious, why is there a need to bolt if people want to dry-tool? most places in CO are conducive to setting up a top-rope. Maybe the Denver dry-toolers should do some research along Duncan's ridge or Rotary Park in Ft Collins. There are several spots that you can set up a top rope on and they are not rock climbing routes. Bolting (in just my opinion) seems wrong whether for rock climbing or dry tooling. PS. You can dry tool on the engineering building walls at CU-Boulder. At CSU you can get arrested for it.

I'll assume you went to CSU? I know there is bouldering on the CU campus, but please don't tell people to come and drytool on the CU campus. You can't drytool on established climbs so not to destroy them, but it's ok to come and destroy the university buildings??? It doesn't seem to make sense IMHO that if bolting is wrong, why chip up buildings? Same long term damage and I'd rather see some choss pile bolted than the CU campus damaged. It's a great campus with a long legacy and the last thing it needs is to have the buildings chipped. Quick way to go to jail, besides being severly uncool.

And as far as I know, campus cops will yank you for bouldering as well even though people do it.

Ron Olsen wrote: The Dome and Elephant Buttresses in Boulder Canyon are on City of Boulder Open Space and Mountain Parks land. OSMP does not allow bolting without a permit on land that they manage.

Who said anything about bolting, if you're hard to the core wicked and raw you climb mixed on trad gear home boy.

Ok, me and my hot head. I should have just let it go. Now this is just ridiculousness. Jason, this discussion has been one of the ones that I have asked many people, of all different discliplines of climbers. It generally gets the same opinions, and the same debate. I agree with you, we should not be shunned, or told by men while shaking fingers "You can not do that here, because I might want to climb that 5.16 someday." However, that is generally the opinion held by non DT enthousiasts. Unless said pile of rock is just that, a pile. However, if it is no pile of choss, you can usually expect the same hostility toward your ideas.
Kevin, just food for thought, but have you ever climbed on a bolted line? Or are you strictly an all trad no chalk kind of guy? Those bolt holes will take infinitely longer to be weathered away as time goes by than any scratches... Just saying.
As to where you guys are getting the idea that I am going to go into Eldo and tool TNE or some shit is beyond me. I understand the impact that steel on rock has, and subsequently do not promote the tooling of established non-manufactured rock climbing lines. Now, could we stop taking shots at one another? I'm ready to be constructive....

So what IS the scoop on access to say the old tunnel in CCC? Does anybody know? Shane, it was your idea, want to contribute something positive again, now's the time.

Hank Caylor wrote: Edit-Seriously, just find a pile of shit (just like ice is

Dude seriously? Climbing ice has less effect environmentally than any other kind of climbing so lets not go down that road just because you don't do it. Sorry, I may have missed the point of this thread.

Phoenix wrote:Those bolt holes will take infinitely longer to be weathered away as time goes by than any scratches... Just saying. .

I'll point out the obvious. Take the bolts out and you would have to have a trained eye to find them, and then only ones closest to the ground at that. They can also be filled. Scratches not a chance. DT creates a path up the entire route. Look at petrogliths, and ask just when those scratches will go away. Centuries (many, many centuries). And for land managers, I see it as something that they can use very easily to restrict the activities. Be careful and respectful in the areas of choosing. I sure wouldn't want to be out on a hike to see a wall that looks as if an elk thought it was a tree. Since the scatches are typically from the crampons, maybe start creating a hybrid where you use climbing shoes instead. Our create a plasic polymer crampon. There may be gold in the future to the guy whom solves the scatches debate, as DT seems to becoming more popular.

Putting tape on crampons and picks removes the tendency of the metal to scratch away at the rock and leave marks. Dting doesn't have to leave marks on the rock if done conscientiously. Wind Ridge has been drytooled many times and I defy anyone on this thread to "spot the marks".
DTing can be done without messing up the rock just like "clean" rock climbing can be accomplished without leaving a trace.......but everyone DOES leave their mark. Hence all the chalk and tick marks that don't wash off.

That said, the location of any crag that is going to be developed for DTing should be kept secret. I aggree with Ian that respect and careful consideration of where the DTing will take place is paramount. There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding on this thread. DTing is just as valid a sport as sport climbing and serves the same purpose.

I agree with Jack and Ian, There are ways to limit the impact of DTing in an area. Duck tape and climbing shoes are good options. I personally would usually prefer to have on rock shoes when training in a DT area. At most, in the past, I've worn boots but no crampons

Also: To follow up on a question from Kevin Stricker, Are there any option for modifying tools to make them less impactful? The option of a composite plastic seems like it could be feasible. Has anyone ever heard of, seen, or built something like this?

Dan Young wrote: Dude seriously? Climbing ice has less effect environmentally than any other kind of climbing so lets not go down that road just because you don't do it. Sorry, I may have missed the point of this thread.

I've actually been to a coupla' Ouray Ice Fests, no big whoop I know. My point was that since ice is always shattering, cracking, trying to kill the belayer. Then chossy rock would most likely mimic that. That's all.

And yes, Ice climbing scares the crap out of me, and I don't scare easily.