How to Big Wall Climb - Selection of short instructional vids

A couple of things concerning Daisies, bounce testing, and backing up while jugging.

Also a disclaimer....I prefer to climb lite and fast. I've climbed plenty of walls and aid in a variety of different stone and have tried multiple methods. My opinion comes from my experience's, plus input from respected friends.

Concerning daisies.....Adjustable's are slower, not as strong and generally contribute to a Charlie Foxtrot.
Why are they slower? You have to move them everytime you adjust them(which for alot of folks is everytime)and they tangle easier.
What about strength? They have been several, documented, case's of adjustable's breaking...both Yates and metolius. The 1500Lbs rating is for static pulls....the buckle attachment is sharp and even a short thumper on it can cause it to cut...and has. The Met's have a sharp angle in the buckle, also creating a weak point...plus the webbing is thin.
That all being said....they are good for slow aid, and also for people who want to "pull" themselves up the route using very little body strength. So if that's you there is your advantage.

As for pocketed or "traditional" daisies....get nylon daisies. NOT spectre/dyneema etc. At some pont in your aid/wall career you will take a static fall, which is VERY bad on spectre. Not great on nylon either but there is a big difference.
Learn to use Fifi. Which means alos when not to....this is an experience thing....go play.

Concerning bounce testing.
Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't!
When don't you? When the placement obviously bomber...Duh!
Also if it's body weight only, and you know it. This is sometimes established by first bounce testing and having the piece blow....but if it's your only move...well buckle up daddy'O. This gets into hard aid....
When do you? Anytime you aren't totally sure about the piece, regardless of rock type. If you are on a string of Body weight gear you need to know it. Bounce testing will save your bacon, period. Don't be shy about it.

Concerning backing yourself up while jugging.

I start by tying into the end of the rope, directly to my harness.
Then every 30-40 ft or above something I might hit if my jugs failed, on a locker. I will drop the previous tie in, unless there is something for it to snag on or it's super windy.
I also tie in more frequently if there is another factor at work....like a big traverse. "Another factor" could be summed up to mean anything that would increase the chances of my Jugs failing/coming off the rope.
Also I often put a carabiner through the top "hole" of my bottom jug to keep it from ever coming off the rope.
The grigri backup method works well. It's only faults are that it can slow down your jugging due to the redistribution of weight bellow the lower Jug. And until it's got some rope below it you still have to feed it. Neither is a huge deal and the grigri works well.
Jugging disclaimer.....As I said before I prefer to climb lite and fast. Jugging quickly is a big way to gain time. It's also very important when short fixing. You should tie in as often as you feel safe!

Alot of folks what to turn Aid climbing into some kind of engineering marvel. It doesn't need to be. Simple, lite and less bulky systems are typically the fastest and most efficent. Although sometimes they require the participant to be in better physical shape.

josh

While we could knitpick each others methods and techniques, something that jumps out at me from Josh's posts, are that we are all aid climbing for different reasons. It depends on what your goal is...

If you are into speed, you are going to lose some comfort. If you are into comfort, you are going to lose a lot of speed. You just have to find a balance for what is important to you.

I remember an article in one of the mags awhile back about Speed climbing in Yosemite... it had a comparison of Chris Mac and someone speed climbing a route vs. two slow guys taking their time up the same route. I think C. Mac. did it in a few hours, where as the two slow guys did the same route in 5 or 6 days. Who had more fun? Why are you up there? These are things you should ask yourself...

But as said, you can't go wrong taking McNamara's advice. It is good stuff.

John J. Glime wrote:While we could knitpick each others methods and techniques, something that jumps out at me from Josh's posts, are that we are all aid climbing for different reasons. It depends on what your goal is... If you are into speed, you are going to lose some comfort. If you are into comfort, you are going to lose a lot of speed. You just have to find a balance for what is important to you. I remember an article in one of the mags awhile back about Speed climbing in Yosemite... it had a comparison of Chris Mac and someone speed climbing a route vs. two slow guys taking their time up the same route. I think C. Mac. did it in a few hours, where as the two slow guys did the same route in 5 or 6 days. Who had more fun? Why are you up there? These are things you should ask yourself... But as said, you can't go wrong taking McNamara's advice. It is good stuff.

Well said.

josh

I've always wanted to weight a piece first before clipping the rope into it. Nice to test the piece first, it is also easier to clip at your waist then stretch the rope above you and if that top piece blows you have that much more rope out during a fall. Sure you are still clipped to a daisy on the lower piece - I guess it might blow...so what? you are tied into the rope which will then catch your fall. Are you worried this 'static' fall onto a daisy will pop the piece? Probably you have a bunch more below that if so. Either way you are aid climbing so you are statically tied to pieces...not much to do about that. Plus you aren't falling very far...so there isn't that much force on the piece below. Certainly more of a worry the harder things get and the worse placements become. I wouldn't know I've never done anything beyond C2.

In any case, at the end of low grade aiding there probably isn't a lot of falling because the placements are so bomber. Though it does happen on 'easy' stuff, so I guess I shouldn't really say that.

I echo what Paul stated above. I tend to clip the piece when I'm moving pass it at waist level.

Is there anyone out there with info on daisy chain accidents? As in someone shock loading a daisy, having it blow, and being injured in the process? Either aiding or at an anchor free climbing.

There is soooooo much talk about daisy chains and I've just never heard of any real evidence supporting the bad hype. I get the theory, just don't see the need to ditch mine yet.

If I'm proven otherwise maybe I'll break down and get a PAS for free climbing. For now daisys work just fine. I'm always into the main full strength loop first and typically I'm clipped into the anchor with the rope as my main anyways. (possible thread drift here).

I've never heard of anyone using anything but daisys or adj. daisys for aiding.

I love my PAS for free climbing anchors.

I've certainly heard anecdotal stories of people tweaking themselves pretty badly in short falls onto daisies.... but no hard evidence.

#1 I've never said to clip the rope into the upper piece before getting on it...I said clip the previous piece before committing to the upper one...which generally put's it at waist level.

#2 There is plenty of data out there concerning static and daisy falls. Rock and rescue did a very comprehensive test/study a couple of years back and you can find it online if you look. Incidently the thing you absolutely don't want to take a static fall on is the PAS...look at the study to figure out why...I've hashed it out too many times.
The main key is to get pure Nylon..no spectre/Dyneema etc.
Sterling makes a PAS style tether out of Nylon called the Chain reactor.
Another place to find good daisy fall info is Canoyneering web sites...those folks know the in's and out's of daisies and the other "tethers".

I also know of 2 seperate case's where Adjustable daisy chains broke due to static falls. 1 metolius and 1 yates. The Met. one happen to Pete Zabrok(PTPP) and has been documented online...by Pete of course! He broke his...leg? Foot? Something as a result. Had the rope been clipped before he committed to the next piece he would have been fine.
The second one happened to a very good friend of mine and involved a yates. It snapped at the buckle and he was very lucky not to have been injured...more because of other practice's he was employing at the time.

I've taken 2 daisy falls personally...both of them were short..and both of them wrenched my back good enough to hurt for somedays after.
Had they been longer I'd not like to know what would have happened.

A daisy fall should never be considered an option...I have trouble believing that people on this thread are even questioning that fact.
I guess the experience level shows.

josh

With Chris Mac's system, there seems to be no way to avoid a static daisy fall.

• He has each aider and daisy clipped to a single biner
• Even if he clipped the rope at his waste before he commits to the next piece, his previous daisy is still attached until he removes the aiders (since they share a biner). Sure the rope could be clipped, but the daisy will in all probability catch his fall long before the rope comes tight
• The only way, it seems, to avoid this would be to clip the rope at your waist on your first piece, and UNCLIP your daisy off that piece prior to shifting your weight to the next piece..... this would require the daisy and aiders to each be on their own biner.

?

Andy Laakmann wrote:Sure the rope could be clipped, but the daisy will in all probability catch his fall long before the rope comes tight

If your daisy is 4-5ft and you clip the rope at your waist, providing you have an attentive belayer( if it's sketchy you can always call for a close belay)....well the rope'd dynamic qaulities will kick in before the end of the daisy.
That doesn't mean you'll use the entire force reduction of even 50ft of rope, but it does mean you won't have a static fall.
Another thing to consider in a static fall is the force you put on the gear. I have personally blown copperheads in half taking a daisy fall....ie; the cable. When all was done the head was still in the rock and the swedged loop was attached to my daisy.
Think about what would happen if that piece is your only "good" piece.

Chris Mac's system is all about efficient movement. It's one he's figured out from lot's of experience. Is there another way to do it? Sure. Is it faster/more efficient? Nope.

josh

I'm from the fat and slow school of aid climbing, so ignore my comments if you aren't.

I like adjustable daisy chains a lot, but there are a few things to keep in mind. Whatever you do, try not to winch yourself up with the daisy. Besides being slow and tiring, it will wear out the daisy much faster than climbing up the steps and pulling in the slack on an unweighted daisy. I don't climb much differently with adjustables than I do with pocketed daisys most of the time - I just really like the ability to be able to lower myself out under load if I am traversing or on a roof. This is much easier with buckle style adjustables like the yates.

The most important thing with adjustables is to replace them fairly frequently, especially if you climb in winch mode. The cases of them breaking I am aware of involved heavily used daisys, and the buckle type can start slipping after they become worn.

It may also seem really obvious, but be careful that the buckle is oriented away from any features that can push on it. I've seen people accidentally trigger the buckle and go flying out to the end of the daisy twice, and it looks really unpleasant.

Andrew Gram wrote:I'm from the fat and slow school of aid climbing, so ignore my comments if you aren't.

But your taste in food, booze, and Music is good so I'll still climb with you.

Beer this week?

cheers,

josh

J. Thompson wrote: If your daisy is 4-5ft and you clip the rope at your waist, providing you have an attentive belayer( if it's sketchy you can always call for a close belay)....well the rope'd dynamic qaulities will kick in before the end of the daisy. That doesn't mean you'll use the entire force reduction of even 50ft of rope, but it does mean you won't have a static fall.

I think that the effect of a dynamic rope in reducing the force on the piece to which the daisy is attached will be negligible in most cases.

Perhaps if a fall occurred right off the belay, the rope would play a bigger role in reducing the force but most of the time, the daisy will take almost all of the load.

I should note that unless I'm on something harder than C2, I don't keep daisies on my aiders at all. I have one Yates adjustable daisy that stays on my harness all the time. I use it like a fifi hook.

Brad

PS. I'm a big fan of the Yates adjustable daisies!
PPS I'm also fat and slow.

Reading Long's Big Wall book, he has the exact same sequence....

• Set the next piece
• Clip aiders/daisy to next piece
• Move onto next piece
• Then unclip your daisy on the first piece

Seems popular, despite the risks.

Now I'm thoroughly confused!

I think that the effect of a dynamic rope in reducing the force on the piece to which the daisy is attached will be negligible in most cases.
the daisy will take almost all of the load. I should note that unless

Think about it....if you come onto the rope before the daisy...you will be caught dynamically vs. statically....will you get the full benefit of the rope? Of course not....but the rope will stretch until you come to the end of the daisy.

When Scott burk had his rope jump/swing set up on the summit of Elcap, people would first tie into a static rope...then tie into a dynamic rope that was 10 (or so) ft shorter. When they hit the end of the dynamic they would be tight on the static.
Same principal...but shorter.
How long is a standard daisy? 4ft? So say you are commited to the next piece...with the rope tight to you....you will be alittle above waist level....if the piece you are on fails (without the rope clipped) you are looking at a static daisy fall of no less than 6ft.
Now if the rope catch's at the 2ft you are above the piece....that's 2/3 of the fall slowed down by a dynamic rope. So which would you rather have?
I've taken daisy falls in the 3 foot realm and would NOT want to double it.

josh

Andy Laakmann wrote:Reading Long's Big Wall book, he has the exact same sequence.... * Set the next piece * Clip aiders/daisy to next piece * Move onto next piece * Then unclip your daisy on the first piece Seems popular, despite the risks. Now I'm thoroughly confused!

It's hands down the fast's most efficient way to aid climb.

C. Mac address's clipping the rope in on occasion before moving up(in the above video)....he says he does it when hitting the ground is possible.....but to be careful because you can create a tangle....he's right.

I don't do it everytime. But if a fall onto a daisy is possible, it's a good option. One you will only learn with experience....GO PLAY!

Also Alot of Longs book is somewhat outdated....still some good info...but things and knowledge have changed.

josh

Josh,
I agree with the theory behind what you are saying and I agree that it is probably a scientifically measurable reduction. I just think that in most cases, the amount of slack in the rope (even during an attentive belay) will negate the load limiting properties that the rope would provide.

Say you clip the rope to the piece you're on at your waist. This is also the piece to which your daisy is clipped. Now you climb until your waist is 3 feet above the piece. With a perfect belay, that means you would fall 6 feet before the rope started to catch you. Now say you have a 4 foot daisy. With the perfect belay, this means your rope would start to catch you 1 foot before your fall was arrested by the daisy.

In this scenario the belay must be perfect in order to gain the reduction forces of 1 foot of rope stretch. Also of importance is the fact that it's the first foot of rope stretch which will provide less force reduction than say the 6th foot of rope stretch in any given fall.

What seems most important is the fact that the belay has to be nearly perfect in order to see any reduction in fall force from the rope. It seems likely that there will be at least 1 foot of slack in the rope in most cases.

Am I making sense to anyone? Am I totally wrong here? It is Monday after all...

Cheers,
Brad

"A daisy fall should never be considered an option...I have trouble believing that people on this thread are even questioning that fact.
I guess the experience level shows."

Calm it down tough, experienced guy. Not everyone gives a crap about going out and aiding A4 to get experience. That's why we are on a forum - to gain some experience and find some answers. If I could never aid again I'd be perfectly happy...some routes just require it. It seems you HAVE to fall onto a daisy in aiding - so it isn't that we are desiring it, but rather that a fall onto a daisy is a fact.

I agree with Brad that if you are clipped to the piece at waist level with rope and daisy it is hard to believe the daisy isn't going to catch you first. I think people are trying to avoid falls onto a daisy chain, but having never done so - many might wonder if a 3' fall onto one is the end of the world. Apparently it isn't that fun. Good to know. Also good to know that there have been injuries from daisys...though it sounds more like from aiding than at free anchors (though daisys for free climbing has been well covered).

Again, it seems to be not that big of a deal...if the daisy catches you and blows - you go right onto the rope. Might tweak your body a bit, but you've got the dynamic rope right there to catch you. How else would you do it?

Brad Brandewie wrote: Now you climb until your waist is 3 feet above the piece. With a perfect belay, that means you would fall 6 feet before the rope started to catch you.

Brad your theory has a fatal flaw....
Why would you climb 3 ft above your previous piece without unclipping your daisy?

In every system mentioned, once you commit to the higher piece the next step is to unclip the previous piece, then climb up the aider.

Now I'll give you that in extreme top stepping situations you might get 3 ft above, but once you commit to the next piece why would you stay clipped?

Another point to be made....some folks in this thread were advocating not bounce testing in sandstone....bounce testing is a good way to avoid falls...or prepare better for them. Rock type doesn't really matter.

josh

Calm it down tough, experienced guy.
That's why we are on a forum - to gain some experience and find some answers. If I could never aid again I'd be perfectly happy...some routes just require it. It seems you HAVE to fall onto a daisy in aiding - so it isn't that we are desiring it, but rather that a fall onto a daisy is a fact.

I take offense to people passing off their inexperience as knowledge.
That's exactly what you have been doing. it's not the first time either.

I've seen people first hand take advice from people like you and come extremely close to dying, in fact I still can't believe a certain someone lived. That person was on C1 aid.

If you are here "to gain some experience and find some answers" then maybe you should listen instead of speculate.

Using words like Fact and HAVE are not ways of asking they are ways of telling. And someone who followed a couple of easy walls is certianly in no postion to tell.

My knowledge comes from experience and listening to the experienced.
It also comes from being an active and continuing student. There is plenty of information out there concerning alot of this.

Do I know everything? Absolutely not.
Am I speaking of things I don't know about here? Nope.

If you want to make personal attacks we can do that. I'm plenty experienced in that realm to.

But I'd rather keep this on topic.

josh