Quickdraws taken off of Finger Prince in CCC

Are you guys for real? Abandoned property?

I'm going to remove every last bolt, hanger and chain from Clear Creek. They're an eyesore and should have never been left. Undoubtedly, nobody is planning to come back for all that unsightly hardware. Thanks guys for giving me the courage and justification to finally cleanup the canyon.

From PRRose
I was wondering whether anyone else recognized that the argument that project draws are "abandoned" applies a fortiori to bolts and anchor chains (and tyroleans).

Regarding justification of removing bolts, I actually did consider it, already which makes me wonder, a fortiori, whether you actually read what I wrote earlier. This mode of arguing for bolt removal is a weaker argument however than the other way round and not particularly compelling.

"While it is true that this could justify bolt removal, again the community interest principle over-rides the individual action. If bolts provide safe enjoyable climbing, chopping will likely not be tolerated as in the case of Ken Nichols (See stopken.org/Nichols%20Plead… and rockandice.com/inthemag.php…;type=onlinenews>>>>>. If fixed draws have community approval, as in Rifle, they will remain in place until the consensus changes. But there is nothing that I see in the legal arguments which confirms that the act of removing quickdraws left overnight is actually theft, except by a possible legal definition, which could of course be easily changed by statute in the case of climbing gear."

Nice try on the editing maneuver. What is it about not asking questions that you don't already know the answer to? Re:the topic being beaten to death, the topic has not even been considered properly in my opinion.

Your arguments have failed to consider whether project draws are appropriate in public places. They have failed to consider whether they represent a potential hazard beyond mere inconvenience for other climbers and visitors. Having not convincingly argued that leaving private property on public land for convenience's sake is entirely right, since you will not defend the practice, you only assert that project draws can't be removed once installed.

Regarding community interest, yes there are ways of enforcing norms of behavior within the community and one of them is individual initiative. While I would not necessarily remove draws from a route myself, I feel that I cannot condemn outright anyone who removes them. Their intentions are their own business but the result is the same. The draws are gone as they should have been in the first place. Quickdraws are not the same as bolts and should not be considered as such.

It's pretty silly to leave draws and to steal hanging draws. In this case finger prince is so far from where any hiker or casual observer would see them it seems reasonable to leave them hanging. But if it can be avoided please do. Also if you are planning to equip a climb with draws or have a project set maybe you should get quick links and steal biners so no one would want to steal them.

While some might disagree, ethics and morality are equally and analogously employed.

Arnold Braker wrote:Are you guys for real? Abandoned property? I'm going to remove every last bolt, hanger and chain from Clear Creek. They're an eyesore and should have never been left. Undoubtedly, nobody is planning to come back for all that unsightly hardware. Thanks guys for giving me the courage and justification to finally cleanup the canyon.

Yes, Arnold (and PR) for real. Of course bolts are abandoned. The person who placed them has no claim to continuing ownership. There might be lots of good arguments against chopping, but one of htem is not that the bolts are owned.

You know that is true. Need proof? If Joe Moralist chops bolts on public rock, what are the odds he'll be charged with theft from Joe Sportclimber? Need more proof? Joe Sportclimber couldn't deny others permission to use the bolts he placed. He couldn't charge money for their use. He couldn't sell them to a third party (without removing them.)

Whatever the bolts' status, they are not the legally protected property of Joe Sportclimber. The day someone tries to establish that they are is the day all bolting on public property is put in great jeopardy.

EDIT: Ah, PR has since deleted the post where he embraced Arnold's argument. But for a time, he was caught up in the madness, sheer madness! :)

Peter Beal wrote: While I would not necessarily remove draws from a route myself, I feel that I cannot condemn outright anyone who removes them. Their intentions are their own business but the result is the same. The draws are gone as they should have been in the first place. Quickdraws are not the same as bolts and should not be considered as such.

Whomever took the draws was NOT making a point. They left all the other fixed draws on this cliff in place. ALL of which are in a more visible location than the ones taken.... This was thievery - plain and simple.

Maybe climbers shouldn't leave their sh*t all over outside climbs like it is their own personal outdoor gym. I understand it is the norm at some places, but to many people it is like littering.
Bottom line, you shouldn't leave your sh*t lying around and then call it theft when your mess gets cleaned up by someone else.

P.S. When I've left bail anchors in t-storms, I've never gotten the gear back... and never really expected to.

This detail does not automatically indicate thievery. The draw remover may come back later for the rest. Finger Prince may have been the easiest to start. If you have draws on the Wall of Justice, maybe it's time to take them down.

Climb trad! Problem solved. Stop chasing numbers! It's pointless.

yes we all should just climb trad b/c i love climbing a 13d on trad any day.

Leave project draws and just climb on them. That way you don't have to clean anything and can bail at any point if the route kicks your butt.

Some time back I would hear people carp about how they didn't want to climb on draws that they "didn't know about" or that had been hanging for a while. They used that as a reason to complain about project draws. But that was typical superstitious thought.

Ian F. wrote:Climb trad! Problem solved. Stop chasing numbers! It's pointless.

your claim that you don't chase numbers would make sense if you only climb unrated routes or first ascents.

your post was pointless.

loc wrote:yes we all should just climb trad b/c i love climbing a 13d on trad any day.

when did Finger Prince get uprated a full grade if it was done trad?

Darren Mabe wrote: your claim that you don't chase numbers would make sense if you only climb unrated routes or first ascents. your post was pointless.

Of course it was pointless. People will never stop pushing their personal grade. But, don't bitch if your S--t get's stolen because you left it unattended.

You know though, it is still possible to visit an area without a guide book or any significant knowledge of the area, and climb what looks inspiring to you, not knowing the grade, or caring either, even if it is rated and been climbed before, just as long as you enjoy it.

Ian F. wrote:climb what looks inspiring to you, not knowing the grade, or caring either, even if it is rated and been climbed before, just as long as you enjoy it.

excellent

Dave Holliday wrote: A corollary to Godwin's Law is that in any sport climbing discussion, given enough time, someone will eventually admonish others not to "chase numbers".

Sport is the new trad...get with the program folks!

Ok people. Thread is getting a bit dull. Same old... starting to recirc. Time to stir the pot. Anyone wanna help.

Get your shit off the walls. If you value it, take it home. If I can reach it and I have spare time I'm gonna through it in the trash. Not worried in the least bit about prosecution and all the preceding quasi legal discussions. I'm just cleaning up the public lands. Trash left behind by lazy climbers. I don't know if it was left five minutes ago or five years ago. Carry draws with you and take that extra iota of energy and clip it on lead. They call it lead climbing for a reason.

Get your shit off the walls!

Lazy "sport" climbers respond now!

Greg D wrote:Ok people. Thread is getting a bit dull. Same old... starting to recirc. Time to stir the pot. Anyone wanna help. Get your shit off the walls. If you value it, take it home. Carry draws with you and take that extra iota of energy and clip it on lead. They call it lead climbing for a reason. Get your shit off the walls! Lazy "sport" climbers respond now!

I'll play along!

Next time I am in the Valley, I am going to drop all of the fixed ropes off of the first 3 or 4 pitches of the El Cap routes and throw them into the trash. Just cleaning up the "wilderness". I don't care if you just climbed those pitches the day before and are planning to jug back up in 5 minutes to start your route.
It's called commitment. Leave the ground with your shit and don't hang a bunch of ropes on the wall so that you can make the climb easier.

Lazy "trad" climbers rebut now!

same goes for drilling of FA's, chop those fixed lines and haulbags!

lazy FAs respond now!