History of Sport Climbing?

Bob D'Antonio wrote: Kevin...you intimidation methods are back handed insults and then you come back later with little or no balls to back them up and try to turn the cards when someone calls your bluff.

Huh? When did this happen in the world of Bob? I must not have been present, because I can't remember lacking sack or turning cards on anything to do with you. Also I think maybe you are out of your league old man, although you still talk a big game. Like I said go try my routes and then tell me I am a pussy.

Ken Cangi wrote: Kevin, I'm glad that you represent less than a microcosm of the climbing community, or I would find another recreation. The only one acting like a badass in here is you, and I guarantee that you're not. You are a pompous asshole to think that anyone gives a rat's ass what you think of them. And, about me laying into anyone, scroll back to see who swung first, jackass. Know I'm laughing, and if you were standing in front of me, I'd be laughing right in your face.

I'm laughing too big guy... I hope you heal up and can find peace in your world. Sorry you have to take it so personally when someone calls a spade a spade....

Kevin Stricker wrote: Also I think maybe you are out of your league old man, although you still talk a big game. Like I said go try my routes and then tell me I am a pussy.

Kevin, what are these routes that you keep mentioning?

Kevin Stricker wrote: Huh? When did this happen in the world of Bob? I must not have been present, because I can't remember lacking sack or turning cards on anything to do with you. Also I think maybe you are out of your league old man, although you still talk a big game. Like I said go try my routes and then tell me I am a pussy.

Bob D'Antonio wrote: Kevin...tell you the truth...from your posts I never thought much of you. There is nothing in the rules that stated I have to like you or you have to like mew. Just because I call you and some others on their bullshit doesn't make me a bully. I could also care less about your new routes. I done thousands of hard trad routes...way before you even started climbing.

Well we can finally be honest with each other than can't we.. Personally I would rather drink sulfuric acid than climb with a egotistical bully like you. Also who is turning the tables and lacking sack now? You were the one who asked about my routes, I told you...otherwise you probably would never have known.

Also please don't ever call me again at home, I don't want to have to pretend to be civil anymore.

Kevin Stricker wrote: I'm laughing too big guy... I hope you heal up and can find peace in your world. Sorry you have to take it so personally when someone calls a spade a spade....

Heal up from what, Kevin? I'm doing just fine. There is nothing physically wrong with me other than that I am physically out of shape. Unlike you, I don't measure my worth by my climbing skills, and, by what you have accomplished in the world of climbing, I suggest that you don't, either.

I know that you are getting a kick out of yourself for thinking that you are pushing my buttons, but I assure you that I am having the last laugh, because you have shown your ass in a way that I could never have provoked. You are like a little boy, screaming "Look at me!" You and Bubb do it all of the time. It's like you can't help yourself, regardless of how foolish it makes you look.

Rant on, my friend. Knock yourself out. I'll keep pasting your quotes for posterity. It's my pleasure.

Cheers

Fortunately for me climbing is only a small part of my life. But you are right, you and Bob are the masters at pushing buttons...you win...I'm going back to my real life, how about you?

I sure am glad I am not "In" with your crowd.

Kevin Stricker wrote:I'm going back to my real life, how about you? I sure am glad I am not "In" with your crowd.

Am I detecting a touch of denial, Kevin? I hate to inform you, but this is real life. You were actually here. Really, you were. Your posts are proof of that. It doesn't surprise me, however, that you are the type not to own your own BS.

And you're probably right about not wanting to be part of my crowd. My crowd is Betsy and our cat. The bulk of my time is happily consumed by them.

Now, are we done yet, or do you have more to get off of your chest? Please don't let me stop you.

Bob D'Antonio wrote: There is nothing in the rules that stated I have to like you or you have to like me(o)w.

Driver: Excuse me, are you saying meow?

Foster: Am I saying meow?

Driver: I thought...

Foster: Don't think boy. Meow, do you know how fast you were going?

[Driver laughs.]

Foster: Meow. What is so damn funny?

Driver: I could have sworn you said meow.

Foster: Do I look like a cat to you, boy? Am I jumpin' around all nimbly-bimbly from tree to tree? Am I drinking milk from a saucer? DO YOU SEE ME EATING MICE?

This is awesome. You guys have done a great job.

But seriously, how can you even compare the two. Kobe actually plays defense, and Lebron doesn't even know how to spell it.

Alright my 12 page prediction came true let's really set the bar high... 20, that right 20 pages come on everyone get pissed. I have faith we can do this, just believe. There's nothing we can't do if we put are minds to it. What would jon bachar, peter croft,or joe herbst think if they came across this post and saw we were under the 20 page mark? Let's do it gang!
josh

I have no opinion on any of this. And if i did I certainly would not express it here. ( though Boulder Canyon did get under my skin two years ago) I'm no fan of the crowds these days but I know how to avoid them after 35 years of front range climbing. That said assigning blame on the current popularity ( and pioneers) of sport climbing is silly. Look more at the magazines, the video makers (guilty as charged), and mostly the gear makers who enable the the prior.

It certainly isn't Bob's fault for being at the right place at the right time. He's as type A as they get so he goes and goes and goes. He's tireless too be sure. He simply can't help himself. He's a hard worker.
Bob has done great things and I think his work with the BLM on Shelf Road and Penitente Canyon issues speak volumes. You can agree or disagree on how he gets routes done, but he gets them done. As does Kevin.

Kevin's tireless work replacing bolts down in the hillbilly backwater Platte should get him in the history books. It's short of astounding. All the time he's put into fixing up the serious big routes down here is amazing. He could have taken that time and effort and put up lots of very hard and high quality routes. He has elected to be proactive like Bob. And as someone who has sunk plenty of buttonheads I really appreciate his efforts.

So chill you guys. You have a lot in common.

Ok, I'll play just to get to 20. This thread has kept me entertained at work for the last couple of days. I started climbing at the Gunks in the 70's and now climb mostly sport with a little trad mixed in. I do agree that climbing sport has made me a better climber. I also think that there is room for us all on the rock. :)
R

Bob D'Antonio wrote:Someone asked a simple question in the OP and a number of people tried to give an honest answer...Joe steps in with his usual rant and proceeds to insult a large amount of people on this site with his comments.

Sorry, been off being 'proactive' with land managers to get all the various prereqs covered for Beacon's annual opening Wednesday.

Bob, my first post, in a thread in 'general climbing', not 'sport climbing', responded to the usual "no gear, only movement" paradox of sport climbing - that if it's all about the movement, then just skip the clipping and TR the majority of the lines sparing the bolts. The rest my posts, if you actually read them on the way to responding, addressed specific, substative points relative to the costs associated with sport climbing, bolting of trad venues, and the roots of the demographics of impact, access and crowding.

And as I've said, I've never once told anyone how or how not to climb. I have on the otherhand, in person told folks where not to bolt and have on-line expressed my personal displeasure with where some have chosen to bolt. To my knowledge, not a single aspect of my personal views on sport climbing has ever forced anyone to stop doing it, though a couple have had to put away their drills and pursue it elsewhere.

Hey, most republicans hold views I don't agree with and in fact find quite distasteful and think are built on a convenient, self-serving worldviews, but I don't consider or take their views or beliefs as an insult. As far as insulting "a large number of people on this site", I only remember directly insulting you - beyond that you must be quite sensitive if just my views on the topic are insulting. Don't like my "beautiful woman" metaphor? Sorry, but it's not an insult, it's actually a completely valid, personal perception. God forbid I should express the one I have for Curling.

It is helpful knowing you're now so far along with denial of the downsides to bolting and sport climbing as to now explicitly fall into the "just don't clip them" school of climbing. This is exactly the sort of 'leadership' that leads to sport climbers poaching in places like Red Rock canyons and kids with drills showing up at trad venues wondering what the problem is. And that is the essential problem I have with sport climbing. I don't give one flying goddamn if you want to clip bolts (or self-promote to assure your place in history). I do very much care that rocks within driving range of [most] cities - those capable of providing a day's climbing and still allow you to make it home at a reasonable hour to be with that happy, stable family - are increasing under pressure by sport climbing.

You can say it's not happening until you're blue in the face, but it is a steady march - do you think folks aren't 'developing' new sport lines around the country east and west of your abundant rockies? They are, and at a steady if not relentless pace. In their wake comes crowds to previously quiet areas and increasingly brings them into conflict with trad climbers and venues. And the current trend in gas prices will only exacerbate the problem going forward. You may be fine with that, and a 'just not clip them' sort of guy, but I and many others are not and will only brook so much incursion.

We've had going on a ten year cooling off period since the 90's bolt wars, hopefully we won't see a return to those times, or see more draconian CMPs like the Flatirons. But by and large, both of those futures are in the hands of sport climbers going forward. Ignoring very real concerns and saying "it's all good" and "just don't clip them" isn't going to cut it over the next ten years - only restraint, moderation, and respect will - or much more active and vigorous land manager / owner involvement - take your pick.

I finally caught Todd Gordon's posts on pages 9 & 11.
Todd, I fully appreciate your refreshing attitude. You sound like my idea of the consumate climber. I'm also jealous. I've always wanted to climb The Totem Pole.

Healyje wrote: You may be fine with that, and a 'just not clip them' sort of guy, but I and many others are not and will only brook so much incursion.

This statement reveals more about your real agenda than does any of your hyperbole about impact and access issues.

Some more "food for thought" about sport climbs. (This is nothing new too....as Bob said;...it is a kind of 80's discussion). The sport climbers love those Petzel hangers winkin' at them as they approach the crag in their lycra with a Starbucks double latte (no foam) in hand. But for the FA party who PUTS the bolts in.....well;...it's a different story. As soon as a bolt goes in, you start the process of pissing people off. There are MANY environmental types (Or should I say "environmental" types;...the ones who beat their chests but drive SUVs and don't recycle their plastic water bottles) that get totally pissed off with the idea of metal in nature (Even if they never go to the crags or ever see a bolt). Then there are the anti-sport climbers who think that only trad climbs should exist; Bolts will ruin climbing ....(Know any of these?). Then you may have put in too many bolts (Chicken shit..)...or not enough (A-hole;..you ruined the climb!)...or in the wrong place (idiot), or you used the wrong TYPE of bolt (You did use only $5.00 stainless steel, didn't you.....idiot)........or you should have used a pin (idiot)...or it was too close to a manky #1 RP placement (idiot).....or why did you put in an anchor when there is a walk off?...or why didn't you put in an anchor on a sport climb?...or why didn't you put in an anchor because the down climb is dangerous...or why didn't you put in an anchor because we don't want another climber's trail from the walk off back to your back (idiot, idiot, idiot!) Why did you bolt that chossy line in the first place; should have left it alone or as a top rope. (idiot).....Isn't bolting illigal anyways (idiot), ......You hand drilled?.....(You ARE an idiot).....Electric drill?......illigal, noisy, lazy , ruin my wilderness experience..........Bottom line;.....people who do FA's of sport routes are IDIOTS! .........(Green Day's American Idiot album is one of the top 5 albums in the last 25 years, according to Entertainment weekly....)........(I'm going climbing this evening to do a new route;.....hand drilled and not in designated wilderness, of course;....I'm still an idiot....Buy Tucker Tech and I some beers and I'll tell you ALL about it.......bring alot of $;...first ascents make us VERY thirsty.......)

Healyje
I'm curious... I'm serious here and not trying to be snide... I'm curious what routes in your area have been bolted that were previously sport climbs. I ask this cus I just haven't noticed it in the last few years. Perhaps in my area there is so much rock that sport climbers are going elsewhere to bolt, or perhaps the traditional ethic is strong enough that bolting trad lines doesn't get done here... I don't know. But unlike the 80's where trad lines were getting bolted, I don't see it these days. As a matter of fact, right off hand I can think of Singapore at City of Rocks, which was bolted in the 80's and then chopped in t he 90's... taking the arguement the other way.

I'm not tryint to make you angry here... I really am interested in the actual routes that this has been done to...

AND btw, your point about traditional crags getting sport routes and THEN getting crowds is a reasonable complaint in that it does happen. However, virtually every other outdoor user group, from surfers to 4wheelers, complains of the same thing. It hasn't jnust gotten hip to be a climber... its hip to gbe outdoors. Also, the western US (especially in your neck of the woods) has grown enormously, and much of that growth has been people who moved there specifically to be in the outdoors.

I feel exactly the same way about raptors and Healje feels about sport climbers.

It's all just a matter of your perspective. One man's crustiness is another man's enlightenment.

Bob D'Antonio wrote: Why do you want birds of prey to die off???

So they will quit closing down climbing faces, of course.