Leaving draws on a climb in LCC?

So I went up to climb Mexican crack with a friend of mine yesterday morning and right when we set up to climb it decided to start raining. So after packing back up and starting to walk down, we noticed a sport climb around the corner that had draws hanging from every bolt. We discussed why the party may have left the gear, and if it would be ethical or not to take them if we did the climb.

The climb was Less than Zero, which is right around the corner to the right from Mexican Crack. We decided to let things dry up for a bit then tied in and climbed the route. We figured that there was no logical reason for someone leaving the draws unless there was an accident of some sort, so we decided to take them.

So, I am making this post to:

1) Give the rightful owner the chance to get his stuff back and,

2) To ask you fellow climbers if what we did was right or wrong

The only way the owner will get his gear back is if he reads this thread. I would say that if your true intent was give his gear back, then I would have just left the gear as you found it! I am not a fan of draws hanging from every bolt, but if there was an accident or something, they would likely be back to grab their gear. I say leave 'em.

I'm no traditionalist but I think that a bunch of bright colored draws left in that area looks bad, so that was my reasoning for removing them when I did

Leaving a note at the start of the climb would be a more sure way of getting them back to the owner.

Really, though, one has to reasonably expect their gear to walk if they left it hanging on a climb that was of a reasonable grade. I think leaving the draws was not ideal and taking them was not either.

Alot of people leave draws up when projecting a route. I am guilty of this myself. I have some up on a proj right now as a matter a fact. I assumed when hanging them that someone would want to take them to prove a point. I accepted that already. I did post on the route page on this site that I was doing it as well as putting in community service of fixing a missing hanger and nut on a bolt to avoid ground fall.
I simply just posted if anyone were to have an issue and pull them please return them or simply just tell me they have an issue and I will pull them myself.

I think that in some cases working on a route weekly and actually using the draws hanging is one thing. Permadraws are not so cool. I think it is pretty easy to tell the difference between the two.

I would have left the draws myself. Posted on the site as to whose they were and why they were there. If no reply and the draws still hung 2 weeks later maybe then pull them.

I hesitate even replying to this thread but since I am guilty of the same sin presently i figure what the hell.

My take would be that it can be right or wrong. given the circumstance. If you did not know the circumstance then you may have been wrong by assuming and taking.
Either way it would be cool for the guy to get his draws back.

P.S. the draws I leave are manky and probably wont even hold a fall :)
Dont think you made a booty score hahaha.
The traffic this route does see usually opts for fixed draws prior as well.

IMO, the fact that you are posting here tells me that you feel like what you did is actually wrong. If you had justified it to yourself, I doubt you would've felt the need to post something more than "Pulled some draws off Less Than Zero, please email me to get them back."

Also, I think if you really wanted the original owner to have them, you wouldn't have taken them in the first place. I mean, it's pretty reasonable that someone isn't going to leave a bunch of draws on a route and then just simply forget about them. They're almost certainly not going to need a reminder on the internet about it. "Hey, we found your draws on this climb, and took them down, contact us to get them." "Oh great! I forgot I even had those up there! Sweet, more draws!"

I think the better thing to do, would be to climb the route, leave the draws, post up here asking about them, post up on other popular websites related to utah climbing, and see if you get a response. Also, if you're really really concerned about them, and really want to take them down if they're unclaimed, leave a note at the base of the route simply asking the person to please clean up their draws, or contact you to let you know that they will be staying there for a bit.

Now, whether or not the person who left them had a valid excuse to do so or not, that's an entirely different question, and one that I personally couldn't care less about. But as for what you did.... I think you could've made a better choice.

Tim Jones wrote:I'm no traditionalist but I think that a bunch of bright colored draws left in that area looks bad, so that was my reasoning for removing them when I did

Did you clean that old piece of tat from the 4th bolt, or just the "garbage" you could add to your rack?

I saw the draws on the same climb Saturday evening when I climbed Crack in the Woods. My partner and I debated taking them, but obviously chose not to do so. We figured that leaving one or two draws meant the party had to bail and it was booty to be had. Since there were several, I recall counting at least 5, we figured they were project draws.

I have to admit that the person who left them was taking a risk by doing so. I knew if I didn't take them and the person who put them there didn't come back soon someone else would grab them.

I guess the real question is when is it appropriate to leave project draws and how does a climber ensure they will be left as project draws and won't be removed as booty?

Edit for grammar

tytonic wrote:I saw the draws on the same climb Saturday evening when I climbed Crack in the Woods. My partner and I debated taking them, but obviously chose not to do so. We figured that leaving one or two draws meant the party had to bail and it was booty to be had. Since there were several, I recall counting at least 5, we figured they were project draws. I have to admit that the person who left them was taking a risk by doing so. I knew if I didn't take them and the person who put them there didn't come back soon someone else would grab them. I guess the real question is when is it appropriate to leave project draws and how does a climber ensure they will be left as project draws and won't be removed as booty? Edit for grammar

TY
The appraoch I took is about the best one can do. I posted on this site on the route page before ever even going up there to fix them. There is no guarantee as you read over and over on this site some people believe that even a project with some fixed gear is free game for the taking. I of course stated I accept that some people are just rude like that and I ask if I can at least be told you have a problem before you touch my draws and assume they are yours.
:) :)
so far my draws have not been touched and the project looks like it will go down in the next week or two.

I don't think fixed or project draws have a place in Little Cottonwood Canyon.

A good course of action is to take the draws down and stash them in a place that their owner will find them but passerbys will not. A spot out of the weather is nice as well.

I have used this tactic when I found a three cam anchor on The Thumb as well.

If someone leaves a bunch of draws hanging then use them if you like but leave them in place. I leave them on my hardest projects as it makes it easier to lead the next time out. You find one or two draws hanging at an anchor or part way up a climb and it is booty.

You might ask yourself this question. If that gear was your best friends would mess with it? I of course would, but I am not a very good person. Seriously, just leave other peoples stuff alone.

I'm obviously pretty new to climbing and I apparently missed the part where you can just leave your gear hanging wherever you want and hope nobody messes with it. I don't find it that unreasonable to take your draws off until next time you try the climb, but if this is considered okay to do then it is understandable

What about those draws that were on Orange Crush for a month or two last spring? Its a very hard route with hard clips. For many people Less Than Zero is a fairly hard route with hard clips. I saw them up there and thought it was cool someone was working it. Its got some vicious heel hooking.

I like the idea of stashing them up there out of the way, but that's what Ian did with his rope on Bongeater and someone took that.

My friend had a bunch of draws stolen off Crosseyed and Painless last summer. They were so old, pink and nasty... who would ever want those? What's up with taking other people's stuff? If you don't like it, be discreet and put it under a rock you could see if you were standing by the route.

And you didn't answer Rick's question. did you take that tat off the bolt or just the draws? Or Steve's point about feeling guilty.

Chris,

My friends and I did something that after a long discussion, we thought was fair game. I am a college kid from New York that has been in Salt Lake for two years and I like to climb a lot. By leaving your gear on the wall, you are taking a risk, and it is in no way the same as leaving your gear at the base of a climb. My friends and I did not have a note, so we figured that the internet, which you obviously use, would work fine...and it did! Hows this for a note? You read it didn't you?

And also, is your opinion seriously that if you can hear traffic and smell brakes from a route that you can do whatever you want to it? Apparently I just don't get it.

So Chris, before you continue to judge me like you have, why don't we meet up so I can give you your draws back and we can talk about it? I don't think you people understand that I'm honestly trying to figure out what is the right thing to do; and I obviously DID feel unsure and a little bad after taking them, so I made this post.

grayhghost wrote:I don't think fixed or project draws have a place in Little Cottonwood Canyon.

agreed.

mobley wrote: agreed.

I second that.

grayhghost wrote:I don't think fixed or project draws have a place in Little Cottonwood Canyon. A good course of action is to take the draws down and stash them in a place that their owner will find them but passerbys will not. A spot out of the weather is nice as well. I have used this tactic when I found a three cam anchor on The Thumb as well.

I agree as well, and I like your idea of taking them down and stashing them. However, I'd still say that I'd prefer to leave them alone for a time and try to contact the owner, before going back and taking them down.

As for the battle between Chris and Tim, it seems like there's only one possible solution. Come over to my buddys house tomorrow and get drunk together and talk it out. Who knows, maybe you'll go climbing the next day together. PM me, I'll give you my number.

grayhghost wrote:I don't think fixed or project draws have a place in Little Cottonwood Canyon.

I agree also.

I want to side with Tim on this one, but I'm biased. I know him to be an honest, humble guy that happens to climb pretty darn well. Should he have left the draws? Probably, but of course, hindsight is 20/20. Was he intent on stealing them? Obviously not.

Chris on the other hand seems to possess an undeserved sense of entitlement and some faulty logic. The burden to place a note at the base would seem to be his. And I see the need to further explain one's actions as falling on Chris' shoulders. By leaving draws, were you providing a service to fellow climbers? What about those that wouldn't struggle as much to clip and climb the route...unless not trusting someone else's gear they were forced to place a second draw or first remove yours anyway?

Once again, Tim comes off as wanting to do the right thing and willing to take critical feedback, while Chris appears convinced that his behavior is right and justified by his living close to the climb and a desire to minimize risk (or maximize the "look what I did" factor) by leaving a trail of draws.

Not sure if I want to get any of this on me, but...

I guess I don't typically view Little Cottonwood Canyon as the same as Hell Cave in AF, or, Pipedream in Maple. In other words, I'm just not used to considering folks leaving draws and other gear on a route whilst "working" it. It does make me examine my own biases.

I just don't prefer folks leaving ropes and draws on routes in LCC. Would I take them? Probably not initially. But, after awhile, maybe, just to get rid of the eyesore. Which, is really the issue for me. Minimizing our impact on public land. Considering all user groups. Trying to "leave no trace" or visual impact of our selfish little pursuits.

If you leave "abandoned property" anywhere, but, especially LCC, then you run the risk of someone "liberating" it, for whatever reason. I know folks who stash gear. I just have a hard time doing it myself, partly because I know if it gets taken, then it'll be my own fault for not taking it with me. And for me, that's the bottom line. That and not having to have someone else clean up after me. Some of this stashed gear gets abandoned as folk's priorities change, or worse.

Part of me wonders if its like a dog marking territory, though. Really, I don't prefer to clip someone else's draws on a route either, and, it'd be a pain to remove them and place my own. It would just be a lot more community oriented to not have to expect folks to respect YOUR gear. Kind of forces a sense of some type of entitlement to a route in a public venue. Seems to rub me the wrong way I suppose.

Not like I'll be sending that route, or Orange Crush for that matter. But, style points go to that Lance feller, who we watched rope solo Meat Puppets last weekend. Better style points to not have to leave draws to "work" that route, methinks.

I dunno. Just spraying some thoughts. LCC isn't someone's personal outdoor gym. I say clean up after yourself. At least it would give us less to argue about. Ha ha.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

Well I'm about to break guideline #1,

I just spent a couple of days in my homeland: the Gunks. I forgot how nice it is to climb on expansive cliffs that are free of bolts. I see that many people on this thread agree that project draws have no place in LCC, because they're eyesores. So now it's okay to STEAL PEOPLE'S GEAR. So what's stopping me from deciding to go out and start chopping bolts? (other than probably getting my ass beat at the park n ride in front of a bunch of snowboarders).

Anyway, if someone decides to hang draws on Less Than Zero, or Crosseyed and Painless, or a climb of a more moderate grade, why not leave them alone? Let the person redpoint and clean their gear. They're gonna want it back. Don't be a prick and take their shite.