What's the hardest trad climb in So. Arizona?

Thank you!

JF

Maybe climbers are like cockroaches... If you see one, there are bound to be 50 hiding nearby.

145 lbs sounds a little heavy to me for normal guys.

dcohn wrote:Maybe climbers are like cockroaches... If you see one, there are bound to be 50 hiding nearby.

actually, i like to compare us to pieces of shit. i can't make a clever analogy or anything like where there's one there's 50 more, i just like to compare us to heinous steaming pieces of shit.

j fassett wrote:OK, I'll rephrase my comments to "I never see anybody on them". I will say this however, I'm on Mt Lemmon about 3-4 days a week and I never see climbers on the routes I mentioned in both my posts, so I think it's safe to say they are rarely visited. Just trying to make a point here, you don't have to take every example literally. Lighten up Francess! JF

Nice one Jeff!

I've gotta agree. There are classic 10s all over the place that I rarely see climbers on.

Nice one Ruland...

The last comment was nothing personal, just a retort. I think that Centerpiece, for example, is probably one of the most popular routes on the mountain. Just look at how many people gave it stars on this website. That is more than almost all sport routes except for Steve's Arete and a few others. Come to think of it, I rarely see people climbing Steve's Arete and that is arguably the most popular route on Mt. Lemmon. I don't really know how often routes get climbed. Fortunately it doesn't matter much anyways. It is pretty cool that all of us down here in AZ can go to a crag and have so much space... like a big personal playground.

Jeff, I'll admit I haven't done 'em lately...but I have done 'em !

dcohn wrote:Nice one Ruland...

i mistook you for someone else until i looked at your profile (was trying to give this dude a hard time) so my bad. i stand by it though, this thread's been too much fun. ;)

dcohn, you are right, we do have our own personal playground here. I should have said, I'm on the mountain 3-4 days a week and almost never see another climber! We have it pretty damn good here!

Rick, there was a bumper sticker floating around when I lived in Boulder which read: "sport climbing is neither" (thought you might like that).

JF

If sport climbing is Geritol for old men (I take it regularly) then it must be Red Bull for young men. Sport and "adventure" climbing can and do coexist.

Well...now that this has devolved into a sport vs trad discussion...

It's great to talk all manly and stuff about cheating death but honestly when you're pushing your limits on poorly protected trad week after week, year after year, your number is going to come up. Back in my purely trad days I could clearly see that if I continued to do harder routes with worse and worse pro it was going to end one of two ways...and both involved a lot of flowers. And that was especially true on Mt Lemmon (as opposed to say Vedauwoo) where tech difficulty and poor pro correlate pretty well.

If you're looking for that danger rush, you could just solo everything...

For me, sport climbing is not about geritol or red bull, it's about getting and maintaining a ripped back.

The "Troll Wall" has plenty of newer trad lines with no protection bolt's for over 100Ft. A few route's here are meant to be sport! No Geritol here just Viagra.

Rick, I think you're being too pessimistic. I see people on Lizard once in a while. I see gym guys getting into gear climbs. I see new routes going up with gear placements preserved. So things aren't so bad.

I drill a hole next to a crack once in a while but only when NOT doing it really doesn't make sense. I mean no one's going to take a rack to The Beach.

Isn't it funny how after about ten minutes any discussion about climbing can turn into a bolting debate.
All of this talk of "hard trad" climbing has set my gears in motion. Does anyone know if Golden Beaver has been done without fixed pro? I went out there today to check it out. It looks like it will take reliable (but some tricky) gear throughout.
I do feel that it is unfortunte that many hard lines get permanent pro installed, thus changing the experience of those who come later. For example: there are now bolts on GB where there used to be fixed pins. These pin scars are what will allow this route to go without the bolts. True, I would have never had the opportunity to try a "gear only" ascent without the pinscars, but that's the nature of clean climbing. Why must more holes and hardware be installed after the pins?

lets follow Sonny Trotters lead. Any line you can climb clean, you can chop.

rickd wrote:Why can't there be a mix of clean and fixed gear? It still can be a traditional route. Today with leaders feelings about clean gear I doubt Lizard Marmalade would be done without bolts. If it had bolts it would get done maybe every week. As it is now, it is almost a museum climb.

rick- correct me if i'm paraphrasing you incorrectly. it sounds like you're saying that traditionally leading a bolted climb is the same experience as traditionally leading it without the bolts present. i don't fully agree with this ... the presence of the bolts takes away from some of the commitment level.

for example, leading "of mice and men" today is not nearly the experience it was before "the gripes of wrath" was bolted right over it.

"solar flare" at the sunspots crag (a great route) can be done on gear or on bolts. but leading this climb on gear is not quite the experience it would be if the bolts weren't providing an easy means of retreat.

there's plenty of rock out there to suit both styles separately ... i think placing bolts on cleanly protectable rock changes the experience for someone trying to lead it traditionally.

just to clarify my own tone, i'm not saying that bolts are evil. and i enjoy mixed climbs a lot (particularly when the bolts are protecting me from long falls). i just don't think that bolts should be placed where clean protection is available.

Golden Beaver had some fixed pins in it originally that were replaced by bolts because leading a route on old fixed pins is not the same as leading it on newly placed pins. I think all fixed pins should be replaced by bolts. If there is really good gear available where the pin was then don,t add a bolt to replace a pin on an existing climb. I put a bolt next to the fixed pin on Histoplasmosis. Some have said that it takes great pro there but I never really thought so. But I may be wrong.

As far as the comment about chopping bolts if you climb it clean. I assume you are trolling. If we chopped every route in town that has been soloed (That is clean) there would be nothing bolted until you got to the 5.10 grade. In Jtree there would be no bolts at all until you got into the 5.12 grade. All the anchors would have to go as well.

And Geir, bolts next to a few gear placements so you don't have to carry an entire rack makes it easier and more fun. I did Peacemaker with nothing but draws which saved a lot of weight and made it for me more fun. A bolt is a bolt is a bolt. If there are a few next to cracks on a route that only takes some gear it really doesn't matter visually. Peacemaker by the way should have a few more bolts so no gear is needed or some removed so you need to carry a rack.

As far as Solar Flare goes, that was a mistake. I think Jim and I will probably remove them at some point. In fact I will start a New Thread and see what others think. Sorry about the hijacking Braxton.

A few comments from a "gone to the dark side" climber.
1: Lizard Marmalade Direct is the best route on Mt. Lemmon. Period.
I've done it half a dozen times as was fully engaged ever time.
Down climbing that tree seems to get sketchier every time though.
2: We should chop Solar Flare, but I would agree that a consensus from all who have climbed it should be sought. (If you haven't climbed it you are not qualified to comment!)
3: Those who bitch about too many bolts should go find their own crag and put up a bunch of routes in the style they choose. Until you've invested your own sweat and money into an area your just a whiny bottom feeder.
4: Life is about change. We didn't use to have sticky rubber, or cams, or perlon ropes, super slick reverse droop ice axes and turbo express ice screws. Nobody's complained about these changes.
People are climbing harder than ever before, because of bolts. I'm pretty sure guys like Sonny Trotter (that dude is bad ass) would not have been thinking about 5.14 trad if he hadn't been doing 5.14 sport first.
There are, and always will be, hard trad for people to climb. I don't expect a retro bolting wave in the US any time soon.
We are all free to pick our own poison, if you don't like mine go find your own. There's loads of new rock out there.

Now back to the subject of this thread: Unhinged on Lost Wall is a really good 5.11 crack climb, well worth the hike.

Eric Rhicard wrote:As far as the comment about chopping bolts if you climb it clean. I assume you are trolling. If we chopped every route in town that has been soloed (That is clean) there would be nothing bolted until you got to the 5.10 grade. In Jtree there would be no bolts at all until you got into the 5.12 grade. All the anchors would have to go as well.

not fair. you know what he means.

Eric Rhicard wrote:And Geir, bolts next to a few gear placements so you don't have to carry an entire rack makes it easier and more fun. I did Peacemaker with nothing but draws which saved a lot of weight and made it for me more fun. A bolt is a bolt is a bolt. If there are a few next to cracks on a route that only takes some gear it really doesn't matter visually. Peacemaker by the way should have a few more bolts so no gear is needed or some removed so you need to carry a rack.

agree with both you and geir. natural pro should be recognized so long as it doesn't require anything ridiculous like carrying a rack up 7 pitches for 3 placements.

Jimbo wrote:Those who bitch about too many bolts should go find their own crag and put up a bunch of routes in the style they choose. Until you've invested your own sweat and money into an area your just a whiny bottom feeder.

very not fair. most routes go up on public land. bolting permanently alters the rock for everyone who visits the crag in the next few years, the next few decades, centuries--forever, until the crag itself crumbles. this is one reason people preach ethics and preserving the rock for future generations. (nothing but respect for you guys who put up routes though, you're doing us all a great service.)

also, for those talking about the thread drifting: i think we got a page or two of very good discussion on the topic and now a new one has come up, and an important one. i think it's OK to drift.

Jon, I think Eric was completely serious. His logic is correct.

"whiny bottom feeders"...I'm laughing, Jim YOU'RE a funny guy.

Jon, if you're worried about climber's effects on rock, why single out bolts ? In the immense time scale of a rock's life cycle it's all the same...C4 rubber, repeated nut placements, falling on nuts, ropes dragging against the rock...all of these accelerate erosion of the rock surface. In fact taking repeated falls on nuts could cause more surface damaged over time than drilling a bolt. So are you worried about the ROCK or worried about the RULES of a game (ie, climbing) ?