learning to aid

To all you aid gurus. After reading, searching, browsing etc. and lacking a mentor. I want to teach myself some aid tech on TR. To keep costs down at the start I figured a pair of cheap aiders, daisys and maybe a fifi. Question: Is there any advantage to learn with traditional daisys vs. an adjustable? Kinda like teach that noob with an ATC before you show him a grigri. Thoughts? Thanks.

-E

I'm no guru, however I learned with Traditional, but teach with adjustable, adjustable seem to make the initial introduction to excessive gear management a bit easier for "first timers."

I like the gri gri analogy. However, the gri gri lets you be a bit lazier, and the adjustable aider lets you focus more on the gear and placements.

I like both in aiders different situations.

Other insights? I'd like to know what other people are teaching with.

Ernie Rolls wrote:To all you aid gurus. After reading, searching, browsing etc. and lacking a mentor. I want to teach myself some aid tech on TR. To keep costs down at the start I figured a pair of cheap aiders, daisys and maybe a fifi. Question: Is there any advantage to learn with traditional daisys vs. an adjustable? Kinda like teach that noob with an ATC before you show him a grigri. Thoughts? Thanks. -E

There are major differences and both would require some practice. I would go with you see yourself using in the future for a wall.
The difference in cost between cheap aiders and good aiders is not much. Just get what you want. I dont even use a fifi now that i have my adjustables. If anything I will have a 10in runner girthed to my belay loop with a biner if I need a quick clip. Otherwise you typically pull your adjustables tight enough to rest. A fifi will come into play once you start learning more and get on a wall. The fifi has many advantages but to start out would not be necessary. I actually just got my first one last week :) I have been at it for about 2 1//2 yrs.
good luck and have fun!.
Its a whole new world of climbing.
cheers
js

Ernie,

Check out the clean walls dvd by Jeff lowe and Ron Olevsky which has lots of tips and a very simple methodology of using aiders.

jefflowe.info/sections/book…

Check out fish for aiders that are well priced. The new ladders look pretty good. His stuff lasts a long time.

fishproducts.com

I like using standard aiders and using a really simple system. Just like on the DVD. When the aid gets harder I then use daises and an adjustable fifi.

Keep you systems really simple to start with and then you can add to it later. I would get proficient with standard aiders first and then move to adjustables if you find you like them. I like them for jugging but that's about it. Everyone has a different viewpoint on this sort of thing as they are very personal pieces of gear.

Its a lot of fun and it lets you go places where you wouldn't otherwise be able to unless your name is Mike Anderson!

Ernie
First let me say I lead my first aid pitch in twenty-five years last weekend.
But in another life before I became a husband and father I manage to get up eight walls. Nothing horrific, mostly the regular sort of stuff.
So that leaves me far below Guru Status.
But as far as a fifi goes it took me five minuets to pull off a hard to make reach.
The other climber took twenty- five and had no fifi. It was my third hand that made all the difference. The other person has a foot reach on me as well.
I have not seen the adjustable fifi but I commented while doing the climb it would help.
1977 after reading Robbins Rock Craft set up a top rope and taught my self aid. Its boring to belay and with a device as low tec as a Gibbs ascender you can top rope your self..
I still use the set I tied in 77 with a store bought pair as the mate. The store bought pair are not the same loop size as the hand tied pair so by mismatching them together
You can step a little higher or a lot higher depending on your need at the time.
Go aid some crack that you know you can get good pro first. After that you will have questions and will better understand the answers.
Enjoy and be safe.

PS John thanks for your advice and lets hear more on different adjustable fifi's

I'm no guru either, but I've done some aiding. I learned to aid with the old daisy & fifi method and have since moved on to adjustable daises. I think they're almost revolutionary; but again, I'm no guru. To answer your question directly, I don't see any benefit in learning to aid with a static daisy and fifi.

IMO, instead of: To fifi or Not to fifi?, the real question is: adjustable aiders with or without built-in load-reducers? Personally, I like the idea of the load-reducers; although I've never needed them. My only gripe--if you can even call it that--with the built-in "screamer" is that it creates more space between my harness and my bottom ascender when I'm jugging and cleaning. Because of that, I find that I use unnecessary energy each time I clean a piece.

There's probably a pretty simple way to bypass the "screamer" while jugging pitches (maybe a rapid-link or something) but I haven't put any real thought into it. Again, I really only aid enough to keep my skills up.

Hope that helps with your decision-making, though.

--Marc

In the clean walls video, I don't think Olevsky uses any sort of daisy!

In this day and age, adjustable daisies are pretty hard to beat. I just screw around with aid here and there, which is all the more reason to make life easier!

You pretty much have two adjustable daisy options: Yates and Metolius. I have both, and never got the hang of the Metolius. Also, the Yates is more multi-purpose in that you can also use it as a load-release system -- say if you are docking a pig. However, you do have to keep your eyes on the buckle so it doesn't flip around, hit a biner, and release...

Have fun!

I don't see any benefit in using traditional daisies - grab yourself a pair of Yates adjustable daisies [you don't need the built-in Screamer] and you're good to go.

If you're not sure you really want to get into it or not, you can actually tie your own aiders out of webbing, like we did in the old days, and see how you like it.

I would also recommend a Kong adjustable fifi tied on slippery 6mm cord [not 7mm] which you use to fine tune your top-stepping. Be sure to tie off the free end with an overhand-slipknot because the thing sometimes slips.

You can practise solo leading on aid as easily as you can practise on toprope. Pick a nice continuous 5.10 or 5.11 crack and you're good to go.

Cheers,
Pete

"Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok wrote:I don't see any benefit in using traditional daisies - grab yourself a pair of Yates adjustable daisies [you don't need the built-in Screamer] and you're good to go. If you're not sure you really want to get into it or not, you can actually tie your own aiders out of webbing, like we did in the old days, and see how you like it. I would also recommend a Kong adjustable fifi tied on slippery 6mm cord [not 7mm] which you use to fine tune your top-stepping. Be sure to tie off the free end with an overhand-slipknot because the thing sometimes slips. You can practise solo leading on aid as easily as you can practise on toprope. Pick a nice continuous 5.10 or 5.11 crack and you're good to go. Cheers, Pete

I'm gonna have to disagree with Pete on the tradition vs. adjustable daisies (and adjustable aiders) here.
IMHO, adjustable aiders are fine for jugging, but for leading on they suck balls (and yes, i say that like it's a bad thing). I'm surprised pete would recommend an adjustable daisy (didn't he take a whip when one failed, or was that something else unrelated altogether) when he's got an adjustable fifi (which are THE shit).

Tie yourself some ladders from some 1" webbing, get thyself to a local over-hanging, over-bolted sport route, and aid your way up the bolt ladder from the ground up. If it's overhanging, and as long as you understand the basic principle of utilizing a rope to protect yourself in the event of a fall, there's little chance of injury if you're to FU somehow (which should be next to impossible on a bolt ladder).

Provided you know how to place gear, once you kind of figure out the sequence of clipping the next piece, clipping your rope to the piece you're moving from, moving up, back-cleaning your low ladder and clipping it to the next piece, there's not much more to learn about aiding, aside than some of the more esoteric gear-type placements (and really, those tend to be more about how to avoid fucking them up). The only thing left to teach yourself is hauling practices, and then squeezing every bit of efficiency out of the two different systems that you can, for your implementation of the systems.

There is no "right way" to aid, and the only "wrong way" to aid ends in a pine box.

In death there are no bragging rights.

To chime in,
I spend a lot of time doing single pitch aid routes and dinking around, simply for the love of systems and knots. not that this makes me an expert, more giving you an idea of where I'm coming from.
Adjustable daisies are no more dangerous than the static kind, unless you're not tied into the rope. I NEVER expect my daisies too hold a fall, and I hope to never fall on one. Static falls of that kind can break 'biners, so sewn slings of any type are suspect.
If I was going to be three-point soloing, I would probably opt for the regular daisies and attach a screamer myself (or even some type of via ferrata device) however, the ease of use of adjustable daisies greatry outweighs the small reduction in strength. Again, I expect to fall on my rope, not my daisies.
Some have had trouble with metolius, I like them, even if the webbing does fuzz up quick. I haven't had any problems with getting the buckle to release either. But, simply my preference.

Anywho, to get back on subject, If you tie you etriers/daisies yourself, you'll probably end up hating aid climbing, because it's annoying and painful that way. The knots you tie will rub against your feet, and the webbing will be constantly tangling. Invest in a good pair of aiders and whichever daisies you're most psyched on.
I prefer yates wall ladders, even in a one aider system, simply because I hate etrier (triangle style) twisting up one me. Course, you can get a good metolius/yates/fish/BD four step cheep, and they work just fine for entry-level aid. There is definitely some crap out there, so make sure you're getting something comparable to those industry standards, at least.
I also highly agree with Pete in the sense that you might as well learn on lead, as long as you're comfortable leading trad. If you don't have a good crack, I've aided up sport routes with hooks (probably not the best idea in sandstone) and even taught one potential wall partner how to aid on the lead wall in the gym! Of course, dude bailed when I went to show him how to head. wuss.

Oh, and i teach new people how to belay with the grigri, so maybe all my advice is suspect. Different conversation, though.

Bottom line, aid is applied systems. The more systems you know and the more time you spend sussing them out, the easier it gets. I'm psyched that you're psyched to aid climb!

Adam

Edit for spelling. I am not psyched on (or even good at) spelling.

Interesting discussion and it just shows how many different systems people use.

Yes, its all about systems and I change my systems as the aid difficulty changes.

When its C1/C2 I use 1pr of aiders, a couple of oval biners and a quckdraw. I'm not attached to anything and its real fast and simple.

Lots of C2 and some C3 I start using 2pr of aiders with Yates Adjustable daises. Slower but real comfortable.

Lots of C3 to C3+ I bring out my A team, with is the 2pr of aiders, Yates adjustable daises and an adjustable Kong Fifi for fine tuning.

C4/C5 Never done it and probably never will. I find c3+ pretty intense.

I tend to buy either Fish or Yates aid webbing products as they tend to be very hard wearing and are well made. When it comes to adjustable daises you can buy just the webbing replacment rather than the whole thing which saves a bunch as you will go through these pieces pretty quickly.

Ernie, Check out my essay on aiders Gear Review - Fish Smart Aiders if you haven't already done so. I do some compare and contrast and some other people have posted their views as well.

Thanks for all the input folks. Already tried the homemade versions and thought what a PITA. If it was 1970 I'd be dialed ha ha! Will probably go with yates or fish trad aiders w/ adjustable daisy. Like ladders but where I'll be climbing I think the softer aider will cause less grief. Thanks again for the "real world experience".

-E

adjustable daisies are really nice, they're also a lot faster than a traditional fifi/daisy setup (both for climbing & jugging).

On a side note...sometimes a traditional fifi can "pop" off its clip (when this happens it really sucks).

to clarify a statement above...Ron O. does not use a daisy or fifi on the clean aid video, but he is also probably the most qualified aid climber out there...I would still recommend a daisy of some sort. It also makes bounce testing tons easier

His top-stepping technique is really sweet, but it only works on less than vertical slab.

There is s discussion about aiders over on the taco today

supertopo.com/climbing/thre…

JamesW wrote: His top-stepping technique is really sweet, but it only works on less than vertical slab.

James I think it depends more on how tall a person is, as I can top step quite easily using Ron's technique on vertical terrain. Prior to watching his video I struggled with top stepping.

I almost never use daisies on C2 or easier routes. They cause WAY for clusterF%#k than they are worth IMO. I do keep a fifi on my harness all the time though. I also climb with 2 pairs of aiders in case I drop a pair and because I think it's easier most of the time.

That being said, I just purchased 1 adjustable daisy that I am going to try this weekend as a replacement for my fifi.

Brad